Mosque at Ground Zero (Merry Christmas, controversial, highway, free speech)

[cremebrulee]

Mightyqueen801
"If you are a Muslim I'm going to assume you're a terrorist until you prove otherwise that I can trust you" is NOT awareness. That is the very definition of prejudice, and prejudice is fear. That is no different than "If you're a black person I'm going to assume you're going to rob me until you prove otherwise that I can trust you". That sort of thinking is hurtful to innocent individuals and goes against the presumption of innocence that is such a huge part of our justice system, or is supposed to be, anyway. People have to be viewed as individuals and not automatically assumed to have sinister motives just because they belong to a particular group.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here...

If your a white male, and I start dating you, I'm going to take it slow, because, I really don't know who you are...trust has to be earned....and I'm not about to date someone exclusively, until I know I can be safe with them, know his family and have spent a great deal of time with him...I'm going to observe him and how he articulates with others. I'm going to observe him with his family, see how they articulate themselves and if we're a good fit...that isn't fear or prejudice...that's just plain wise.

I'm going to assume here that it's not your goal to kill Muslim children and steal land that belongs to Muslims. Yet, if you found yourself in certain communities in certain parts of the Middle East, the people there would see you were an American and assume exactly that about you. You are an American, and that's what some people believe all Americans are all about. It could be very difficult for you to prove that you, "actonbell" (love the name by the way), are not out to do them harm, or that you are not a spy, etc. You are an American, and they "know" what Americans want to do to them.

Exactuly, that is also not prejudice, but I'm going to have to prove myself to them, so that they make certain I am not going to hurt them...

Prejudice is easier. It involves less risk, but is that really the type of person one wants to be?

I've never been prejudice in my entire life....I have many friends from different ethnic groups...however, we from both sides, took it slow, worked together, ate lunch together, to see if we had anything in common, that is not prejudice....so you can look at it both ways...today, if you disagree, right away someone pulls the prejudice card and then claims it's fear....so, when I went thru security at the airport, I set off the alarm, b/c I have two knee replacements, I had a note from my doctor, they didn't even look at it, they proceeded to go thru my baggage, take everything out, my purse, and threw away 40.00 worth of makeup...I could have pulled the prejeduce card, but did not...although I was angry...very angry...they never looked at the note from my doctor, or even acknowledged the 8 in scares on my knees....but I'm white, so I could hardly scream prejudice could I...especially since they were all white...?

"Words like freedom, justice, democracy are not common concepts; on the contrary, they are rare. People are not born knowing what these are. It takes enormous and, above all, individual effort to arrive at the respect for other people that these words imply." - James Baldwin

Respect must be earned....

so, for every issue I try to state, my opinion on, I can also, find information which will prove my point, the only difference is, I don't use the prejudice fear card...to prove my point...

[cremebrulee]

actonbell
What we allow here to happen in America does not happen in other countries. So what is the definition of freedom when it is allowed that one person, by law, can step on the rights of another.

Exactly, my DIL proposed a very good question....
Isn't it funny how our government and culture teaches tolerance of all religions except Christianity?

So very true....

[newtoli]

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

Exactly, my DIL proposed a very good question....
Isn't it funny how our government and culture teaches tolerance of all religions except Christianity?

So very true....

You have gotta be kidding me. Christians are the majority in the Country, and I'm sick of this new BS where they act like they are somehow persecuted or not tolerated. Give me a break.

[cedew]

Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801

"If you are a Muslim I'm going to assume you're a terrorist until you prove otherwise that I can trust you" is NOT awareness. That is the very definition of prejudice, and prejudice is fear. That is no different than "If you're a black person I'm going to assume you're going to rob me until you prove otherwise that I can trust you". That sort of thinking is hurtful to innocent individuals and goes against the presumption of innocence that is such a huge part of our justice system, or is supposed to be, anyway. People have to be viewed as individuals and not automatically assumed to have sinister motives just because they belong to a particular group.

In itself, you would be right, however it is more complex than that. Do you know what comes with being Muslim? Are you aware of the ideology that comes with being Muslim? What if the word "Muslim" was defined as a terrorist organization? Would there still be prejudice? You shouldn't immediately assume that disapproving of Muslims is prejudice because oddly, there's prejudice in doing so.

I think we need to look at the word prejudice...

1
: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

2
a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics


The two key points in there you need to look at are "without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge" and "an irrational attitude". Now go read up on Muhammad, do you think he is a great role model that one should praise? Muhammad was a pedophile, plain and simple. To me, that falls under just grounds to dislike Muhammad and anyone who thinks he was a good person. It just so happens, Muslims think he's awesome. Maybe if Muhammad acknowledged these acts as a mistake and spent volumes apologizing for it, learned his lesson, blah blah blah, then maybe we could pretend not to vomit as his existence. Like it or not, you can disapprove of Muslims, Islam, and Mohammad...without prejudice.

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by newtoli

You have gotta be kidding me. Christians are the majority in the Country, and I'm sick of this new BS where they act like they are somehow persecuted or not tolerated. Give me a break.

Not persecution, but double standards within our laws. Not just for Christians either, do some checking find the examples.

I've said this before and I will say it again. Jesus Christ is not interested in brick, mortar or the ground at our feet. Only people are interested in the power that comes from worldly possessions.

It is not of this life He spoke of, but that of the afterlife.

There is a huge difference between those who say and those who do. Learn the difference and the rest is a piece of cake.

People may be able to persecute the human's body, but not one can take away the spirit.

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by cedew

In itself, you would be right, however it is more complex than that. Do you know what comes with being Muslim? Are you aware of the ideology that comes with being Muslim? What if the word "Muslim" was defined as a terrorist organization? Would there still be prejudice? You shouldn't immediately assume that disapproving of Muslims is prejudice because oddly, there's prejudice in doing so.

I think we need to look at the word prejudice...

1
: injury or damage resulting from some judgment or action of another in disregard of one's rights; especially : detriment to one's legal rights or claims

2
a (1) : preconceived judgment or opinion (2) : an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge b : an instance of such judgment or opinion c : an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics


The two key points in there you need to look at are "without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge" and "an irrational attitude". Now go read up on Muhammad, do you think he is a great role model that one should praise? Muhammad was a pedophile, plain and simple. To me, that falls under just grounds to dislike Muhammad and anyone who thinks he was a good person. It just so happens, Muslims think he's awesome. Maybe if Muhammad acknowledged these acts as a mistake and spent volumes apologizing for it, learned his lesson, blah blah blah, then maybe we could pretend not to vomit as his existence. Like it or not, you can disapprove of Muslims, Islam, and Mohammad...without prejudice.

Well, for one thing, Mohammed is dead, so he's not going to be acknowledging anything anytime soon.

You certainly can disapprove of Muslims and their religion. That has nothing to do with what I said. It's not a religion I would choose, but I know a fair number of Muslims, including a few who survived the WTC attacks, and they aren't terrorists. Hence my suggestion that we take people as individuals and not lump them all together in one big assumption as to who they are and what they will do.

I've seen some pretty lame assumptions on here, and anyone who has read these "mosque" threads has seen them, too. A good example of "an irrational attitude...their supposed characteristics" would be all the lame statements on here about Muslim women having to wear burqas. In Afghanistan? Yeah. Here in the US? Rarely. I saw one once, in A.C. Never in N.Y.C., although I know there are fundie mosques in Brooklyn where people say they do. But since we are talking about specific individuals in a specific place, and since it's pretty obvious from photos that Daisy Khan doesn't even cover her HAIR and fights for women's rights, why is that even brought up?

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by cedew

In itself, you would be right, however it is more complex than that. Do you know what comes with being Muslim? Are you aware of the ideology that comes with being Muslim?

.

Forgot to respond to this part--

Do you really believe that there is one ideology that comes with being Muslim? There is not. Different groups, and I would venture to say different individuals, have different beliefs about what being a Muslim is to them.

Same as Christians.

Same as Jews.

There is not a one-size-fits-all Muslim ideology.

[Mightyqueen801]

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

Exactly, my DIL proposed a very good question....
Isn't it funny how our government and culture teaches tolerance of all religions except Christianity?

So very true....

Not true at all.

[Ellis Bell]

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

Exactly, my DIL proposed a very good question....
Isn't it funny how our government and culture teaches tolerance of all religions except Christianity?

So very true....

I'm thinking the teaching of tolerance for surpasses that of Christianity. You got to know I love research: Repressive Tolerance, by Herbert Marcuse (1965)

The political locus of tolerance has changed: while it is more or less quietly and constitutionally withdrawn from the opposition, it is made compulsory behavior with respect to established policies. Tolerance is turned from an active into a passive state, from practice to non-practice: laissez-faire the constituted authorities. It is the people who tolerate the government, which in turn tolerates opposition within the framework determined by the constituted authorities.

For if 'education' is more and other than training, learning, preparing for the existing society, it means not only enabling man to know and understand the facts which make up reality but also to know and understand the factors that establish the facts so that he can change their inhuman reality. And such humanistic education would involve the 'hard' sciences ('hard' as in the 'hardware' bought by the Pentagon?), would free them from their destructive direction. In other words, such education would indeed badly serve the Establishment, and to give political prerogatives to the men and women thus educated would indeed be anti-democratic in the terms of the Establishment. But these are not the only terms.

This is a very good essay.

So is this what we are doing, we are being tolerant of the government of Islam. The middle east can disrespect America, but Americans don't disrespect the middle east. We must never object to anything they wish to do here in America.

Throughout history, "tolerance" has meant different things to different people. A century ago, most Americans would have defined it as civility toward disagreeable persons, not as acceptance of contrary views. In contrast, today's "tolerance" demands acceptance of politically correct views but intolerance toward those who cling to "traditional" values. While media leaders feel free to mock Christians, believers are losing their freedom to state their convictions. After all, they might hurt someone's feelings. Tolerance as a Tool for Transformation

my bold for emphasis

[Goodnight]

Originally Posted by cremebrulee

I don't know how many times I have to write this...?

I don't dispute, Iman's wife, or the work some Muslim woman are doing
I don't think all Mulsim's are bad people....

You were using the radical factions as an example, the worshippers fromlower Mnahattan are completely different. Yes there are are some groups of radical muslims do we hold the Imam responsible for their behaviour?