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Old 10-03-2010, 05:52 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,578,960 times
Reputation: 11083

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I don't care about "protected classes"--if I don't want to serve someone, that's my option.

And if they want to claim it was for any particular reason, I could simply reply that it was due to their ATTITUDE when they walked in the store.
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:04 PM
 
5,715 posts, read 15,027,395 times
Reputation: 2949
Default Baking is a creative pursuit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
Yes, in Marion County, Indiana, sexual orientation is a protected category.
So, according to you, a gay should be able to go into any business and place and order for any product and demand that the business fill that order --
OR ELSE !

"Because they're a protected class..."

What about the "rights" of the business owner?

Reading this discussion, I've been thinking about a personal experience that I had in my life. It wasn't with a gay person or gay group so please try to understand what I'm talking about.

In the past, I've done freelance graphic design for different groups. Maybe you don't see the connection between cookies and graphic design but I guess I see both as creative professions -- and judging from all of the cooking shows on television there is a definite agreement on that view in the general population.
So, let's agree that both cooking and graphic design are creative jobs for the purpose of this discussion.

I loved design work but I kept being asked to use my talent and creativity in design for businesses and other entities that I didn't agree with philosophically.
Have you ever been asked to do something for money - or by an employer - that your conscience felt was wrong?

I wanted the money but not at the cost of compromising my ethics.

For me, this finally came to a head when I worked for a printer and could not refuse to do jobs that were brought to me.
It didn't matter what the job was, if the printer took the work -- I had no choice.

The owner of the print shop's ethics were very different than my own.
Apparently, he agreed with the person on this thread that said that you "do what you do for the money."
Two of his biggest customers were the kinds of businesses that I didn't want to use my talent for...

So... the end of this story is that I've not been doing graphic design lately because I don't want to do things with my art that I feel burdened by.

Have you ever been forced to do something for money that you felt was wrong?

Last edited by World Citizen; 10-03-2010 at 07:25 PM..
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:01 PM
 
26,680 posts, read 28,624,812 times
Reputation: 7943
Quote:
Originally Posted by World Citizen View Post
So, according to you, a gay should be able to go into any business and place and order for any product and demand that the business fill that order --
OR ELSE !
It's not according to me, it's according to the laws that protect people on the basis of sexual orientation - and that includes heterosexuals. There have been cases of gay businesses discriminating against heterosexuals. I know of a gay bar in Minneapolis that was taken to court after they refused to allow heterosexual couples to enter. The gay bar lost the court case.

Quote:
"Because they're a protected class..."

What about the "rights" of the business owner?
Actually, I can see both sides of the issue too. The libertarian in me believes that a private business should have a right to refuse to do business with whoever they choose, but I can also see how discrimination is bad for society, especially when it's based on a core part of a person's identity, such as sexual orientation.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:07 PM
 
26,680 posts, read 28,624,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by new2colo View Post
There is no way that the baker refused an order because of this group's sexuality. How, again, could the baker have known these people were homosexuals unless the group made it apparent? Why did the group feel the need to let the baker know who they prefer to sleep with at night?
It doesn't matter what the group said or didn't say. What matters is whether or not the baker discriminated on the basis of their sexual orientation. Even if he just assumed that they're gay based on the fact that they ordered rainbow cupcakes and used that assumption to discriminate against them, it's wrong.

You're acting as if it's the gay group's fault that they were discriminated against. You're saying, "Stay in the closet and you won't have to deal with discrimination." That's ridiculous on its face.

Quote:
I want to see how this group is going to prove they were kicked out of the store because of their sexual orientation. They were denied rainbow colored cupcakes because of the connotation the cupcakes carry with them.
If they find other gays who were refused service, they'll have a very good case on their hands.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,578,960 times
Reputation: 11083
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
It doesn't matter what the group said or didn't say. What matters is whether or not the baker discriminated on the basis of their sexual orientation. Even if he just assumed that they're gay based on the fact that they ordered rainbow cupcakes and used that assumption to discriminate against them, it's wrong.

You're acting as if it's the gay group's fault that they were discriminated against. You're saying, "Stay in the closet and you won't have to deal with discrimination." That's ridiculous on its face.



If they find other gays who were refused service, they'll have a very good case on their hands.

This is going to sound racist--but if a black guy walks into a Subway, and orders fried chicken, collard greens, and watermelon, he's not going to be served. But mainly because Subway doesn't serve those items. He can't scream that he was being discriminated against. Well, he can, but it wouldn't hold water.

Now, if a white guy walks in, and I don't like the color of his tie, and decide not to serve HIM, what's his recourse? Find another place to go that WILL serve him--it's really pretty simple. He cannot, unfortunately, claim that I discriminated against him like the black guy could.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:23 PM
 
26,680 posts, read 28,624,812 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
This is going to sound racist--but if a black guy walks into a Subway, and orders fried chicken, collard greens, and watermelon, he's not going to be served. But mainly because Subway doesn't serve those items. He can't scream that he was being discriminated against. Well, he can, but it wouldn't hold water.

Now, if a white guy walks in, and I don't like the color of his tie, and decide not to serve HIM, what's his recourse? Find another place to go that WILL serve him--it's really pretty simple. He cannot, unfortunately, claim that I discriminated against him like the black guy could.
I'm not sure what either of those situations proves.

A white guy can claim that a business discriminated against him based on his race. All he has to do is prove it. Of course, it's so rare that whites are discriminated against that it's almost silly to talk about it.
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Old 10-03-2010, 08:57 PM
 
1,629 posts, read 2,621,279 times
Reputation: 3510
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
It doesn't matter what the group said or didn't say. What matters is whether or not the baker discriminated on the basis of their sexual orientation. Even if he just assumed that they're gay based on the fact that they ordered rainbow cupcakes and used that assumption to discriminate against them, it's wrong.

You're acting as if it's the gay group's fault that they were discriminated against. You're saying, "Stay in the closet and you won't have to deal with discrimination." That's ridiculous on its face.

If they find other gays who were refused service, they'll have a very good case on their hands.
They were not discriminated against. Refusing to make someone cupcakes is not a crime.

If you wanted to be treated with respect you have to be respectable. If the group came into the bakery overly flamboyant and causing a scene, I would be wary of their intentions.
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:04 PM
 
Location: South Park, San Diego
6,109 posts, read 10,851,469 times
Reputation: 12476
Quote:
Originally Posted by new2colo View Post
They were not discriminated against. Refusing to make someone cupcakes is not a crime.

If you wanted to be treated with respect you have to be respectable. If the group came into the bakery overly flamboyant and causing a scene, I would be wary of their intentions.
Of course the proprietors have every right to refuse service to anyone, and their ridiculous reason (a rainbow motif on a cupcake will ruin their young daughters sensibilities for life?!) should be noted and other potential customers should be able to consider this as they choose a bakery.

No one came in in drag and caused a scene here though.
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Old 10-04-2010, 07:26 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,232 posts, read 46,578,960 times
Reputation: 11083
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
I'm not sure what either of those situations proves.

A white guy can claim that a business discriminated against him based on his race. All he has to do is prove it. Of course, it's so rare that whites are discriminated against that it's almost silly to talk about it.
The fact that no one seriously considers discrimination against whites to occur is discrimination enough, isn't it?

The point in my first paragraph was simply that the bakery refused to make those particular items. Now, if the people had wanted some ciabatta or challah, or a nice fruit pie, they might have certainly complied.

If I tell you that I want a cake with green frosting, you don't have to make it for me, and can ask me to take my business elsewhere.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:24 AM
 
5,715 posts, read 15,027,395 times
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Default It sounds like you've got a case of a "too honest businessman"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
It's not according to me, it's according to the laws that protect people on the basis of sexual orientation - and that includes heterosexuals. There have been cases of gay businesses discriminating against heterosexuals. I know of a gay bar in Minneapolis that was taken to court after they refused to allow heterosexual couples to enter. The gay bar lost the court case.

Actually, I can see both sides of the issue too. The libertarian in me believes that a private business should have a right to refuse to do business with whoever they choose, but I can also see how discrimination is bad for society, especially when it's based on a core part of a person's identity, such as sexual orientation.
As I read it, they didn't refuse to do business with them. They were treated with respect in the store.
The cookie store just didn't want to make those particular cupcakes.

I'm quite sure that there are plenty of other places where they can get their order filled and where the business would enjoy making them.

As I see it, this really is about taking away someone's personal freedom. And, as I read the law you're quoting, I'm not sure it applies here.

As I read it, the shop owner did not in any way mean harm to them.
However, it seems that is the case from the gay community. They want to cause him harm.

Will "winning" this issue advance the cause you're fighting for or will it cause damage?

We're really talking about rainbow cupcakes here, aren't we?

Last edited by World Citizen; 10-04-2010 at 09:40 AM..
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