Do you agree with Bush's decision on Scooter? (wisdom, crimes, cost)

[saganista]

Originally Posted by Jason_Els

Ford was a total klutz and gave Chevy Chase some great material to work with.

Actually, Ford was one of the most coordinated and athletically gifted Presidents in US history.

Originally Posted by Jason_Els

He did, however, finally get us out of Vietnam and granted clemency to draft dodgers. I think he did the right thing in that.

All US soldiers had been ordered out of Vietnam by March 29, 1973. Richard Nixon was President at that time. President Ford's so-called clemency program was so onerous in its terms that it was deemed a failure even by the Ford people who ran it. There were more people eligible for resistance-related relief when the program ended than there were when it began.

[Toninole]

Originally Posted by VAFury

The fact is that she hadn't had a NOC assignment for years and that Brewster Jennings was one of MANY covert fronts. One which Plame hadn't used (again) in years.

I misread saganista's point on the intelligence community and how they should feel about this betrayal (no matter how slight I believe it to be) and do agree that I'd be ticked at the administration for something like this.

Now I'm also with everyone that says that what occurred was improper at best, but I'm fed up with hearing about "Plame the Polly Purebread victim"... Maybe she should write a book and make some mon........... Oh.......... Nevermind.

Okay, she testified before congress that she was "covert" leading up to the Iraq war, well within the 5 year limit. If she was lying - wouldn't they have charged her by now?

I'm just curious what you think she has done wrong? If you are sick of hearing how great she is and how bad this situation is for her then tell me what she should be HAPPY about in this matter!!!!

She lost her career and we lost a fine asset. That makes us all victims. I guess that doesn't matter, huh?

[Jason_Els]

Originally Posted by saganista

Actually, Ford was one of the most coordinated and athletically gifted Presidents in US history.

He may well have been, but it's more amusing to remember him tripping over himself.

All US soldiers had been ordered out of Vietnam by March 29, 1973. Richard Nixon was President at that time. President Ford's so-called clemency program was so onerous in its terms that it was deemed a failure even by the Ford people who ran it. There were more people eligible for resistance-related relief when the program ended than there were when it began.

We didn't leave Vietnam until the fall of Saigon in 1975. Given the foot-dragging and unfulfilled promises by Johnson and Nixon to get out of Vietnam, I give credit to the guy who actually did it. I'm not minimizing Nixon's order. Had he finished his term, I would have given him credit if he kept to his apparent plan. Forgive me if I'm skeptical.

Ford's clemency program may have been onerous, but he did do it.

[burdell]

According to an article in today's paper 75% of the 198 defendants sentenced in federal court last year for obstruction of justice, only one of four crimes Libby was convicted of, received jail time. The average sentence received for that charge was 70 months.

The article goes on to say that last week the Supreme Court upheld a 33 month prison sentence for a decorated Army veteran convicted of lying to a federal agent about a machine gun he had purchased. He was a Vietnam and Gulf War veteran and had no criminal record. Justice Dept. lawyers argued the sentence should stand as it was within federal sentencing guidelines.

So no, I don't agree with Bush's action and claim that Libby's sentence was too harsh. I think it only serves to confirm what a hypocritical pandering political hack he truly is.

[saganista]

Originally Posted by Jason_Els

We didn't leave Vietnam until the fall of Saigon in 1975.

Depends what you mean by leave. US troops were pulled from the country in 1973. Military assistance soon followed. Even economic assistance went to zero in late 1974. In April 1975, faced with last stages of a communist victory, US helicopters based on ships offshore flew in to remove the last remnants of our diplomats, reporters, and other diehards, and tried to take along as many of the Vietnamese who had helped us as we could. If you count the ability to fly in from offshore and pluck a few people off a rooftop as being present, then yes, we didn't leave until April 1975.

Originally Posted by Jason_Els

Ford's clemency program may have been onerous, but he did do it.

Yup, he did do it. The clemency thing was supposed to counter-balance the pardon thing. Of course, two years of involuntary servitude, forced oath signings, loss of all pension and other veterans benefits, and undesirable discharge papers to drag around wasn't quite the deal that Nixon got.

[Jason_Els]

Originally Posted by saganista

Depends what you mean by leave. US troops were pulled from the country in 1973. Military assistance soon followed. Even economic assistance went to zero in late 1974. In April 1975, faced with last stages of a communist victory, US helicopters based on ships offshore flew in to remove the last remnants of our diplomats, reporters, and other diehards, and tried to take along as many of the Vietnamese who had helped us as we could. If you count the ability to fly in from offshore and pluck a few people off a rooftop as being present, then yes, we didn't leave until April 1975.

That's a good point. I'm happy to concede that Nixon did achieve the great majority of our withdrawal from Vietnam.

Yup, he did do it. The clemency thing was supposed to counter-balance the pardon thing. Of course, two years of involuntary servitude, forced oath signings, loss of all pension and other veterans benefits, and undesirable discharge papers to drag around wasn't quite the deal that Nixon got.

Not sure what you mean by, "... that Nixon got," other than Nixon lived to see his legacy ruined by his misconduct and then somewhat rehabilitated by history. Sad to say, Nixon's name at the top of any, 'worst presidents,' list is certain to be replaced.

FYI, for the record, I don't think Nixon was the worst president ever. William Harrison and Garfield are non-sequiters so I don't count them. At the top of my list are Harding, Wilson, Buchanan, both (aptly named ) Johnsons, Pierce, and FDR. Nixon's in there too but his legacy wasn't as disasterous as some of the others. Pierce and Buchanan could somewhat fairly be blamed for helping to sow the seeds of the Civil War and the resultant tragedy. Wilson sold out our monetary system and blatantly lied about keeping us out of WW I, needlessly sent 115,000 Americans to their death, and should have resigned after his stroke instead of leaving Edith to run the White House. FDR started our government on the course to financial disaster with the creation of massive government programs that still persist, detaining American citizens as POWs, selling out eastern Europe, and leaving Truman completely in the dark about way too many things, yet he did successfully lead the country in war time in a way the country needed to be led.

Where Nixon fits in, I don't know. He did pull us out of Vietnam, opened relations with China, developed Détente with the USSR, and enforced Supreme Court rulings on desegregation. If it hadn't been for Watergate and, to a lesser extent, withdrawing from Bretton Woods and failing to quickly settle the OPEC embargo, he may have been the greatest of the 20th century.

[doc1]

Originally Posted by Jason_Els

Proclamation 4313
Announcing a Program for the Return of Vietnam Era Draft Evaders and Military Deserters

September 16th, 1974

By the President of the United States of America.........

........IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this sixteenth day of September in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred seventy-four, and of the Independence of the United States of America the one hundred and ninety-ninth. GERALD R. FORD

Whoops! Thanks.

[Rhett_Butler]

Originally Posted by Toninole

Okay, she testified before congress that she was "covert" leading up to the Iraq war, well within the 5 year limit. If she was lying - wouldn't they have charged her by now?

I'm just curious what you think she has done wrong? If you are sick of hearing how great she is and how bad this situation is for her then tell me what she should be HAPPY about in this matter!!!!

She lost her career and we lost a fine asset. That makes us all victims. I guess that doesn't matter, huh?

NM, didn't see the entire thread on this....

[Sprinter]

Tony telling it like it is.

WASHINGTON (AP) - The White House on Thursday made fun of former President Clinton and his wife, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, for criticizing President Bush's decision to erase the prison sentence of former aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby.
"I don't know what Arkansan is for chutzpah, but this is a gigantic case of it," presidential spokesman Tony Snow said.

Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., has scheduled hearings on Bush's commutation of Libby's 2 1/2-year sentence.

"Well, fine, knock himself out," Snow said of Conyers. "I mean, perfectly happy. And while he's at it, why doesn't he look at January 20th, 2001?"

In the closing hours of his presidency, Clinton pardoned 140 people, including fugitive financier Marc Rich. -Snip

[Jason_Els]

Haha!

Just reported:

According to a July 3 order issued by Judge Reggie Walton, who was the trial judge in Libby's case: "Strictly construed, the statute authorizing the imposition of supervised release indicates that such release should only occur after the defendant has already served a term of imprisonment." -WNBC.com

Scooter Libby won't serve any probation because the law states that the convicted must be imprisoned before probation can be ordered.

Bush was too stupid to let the Justice Department review the commutation before he authorized it.

So now all Libby has to do is pay a $250,000 fine. After all, wouldn't want, "liberal," judges who don't adhere to the strict letter of the law to, "legislate from the bench."

Once again, the rich and connected buy their way out of justice.