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Old 10-11-2010, 05:06 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,253,696 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Why do you think the United States has so often supported dictators and monarchies in the Middle East, even oppressive ones like Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and to a much lesser extent, Jordan? Perhaps it is because of this very reason as you are pointing out, that if democracies existed in the Middle East, they would be at war with Israel before sundown.

So, this makes it quite evident that the US is not always supportive of democracy, and in this case because of our relationship with Israel. So one could plausibly state that Israel very much influences US foreign policy in the Middle East, no? Can we at least agree on this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
That is a very selective and wharped analysis of the reason for American support of dictatorships. The PRIMARY reason the US supports the Saudi and other dictatorships of the Gulf is OIL. Those governments are the only thing standing in the way of radical Islamic takeovers of our oil supply.

Once again your view of the world is twisted to support your would-be policy. Go Pat Buchanan!
This is an excellent example of propagandizing. First this poster comes up with the proposterous claim that the US is supporting dictatorships, specifically mentioning Saudi Arabia, to defend Israel. (As if sending $60 billion of advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia is helping Israel). Notice that this poster did not respond when his claim was exposed for what it is - baseless.

My point is that when confronted with facts, these propagandizers will abruptly disappear from the thread. Knowledge and truth will shut them up.
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:01 PM
 
11,130 posts, read 8,216,583 times
Reputation: 3649
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
This is an excellent example of propagandizing. First this poster comes up with the proposterous claim that the US is supporting dictatorships, specifically mentioning Saudi Arabia, to defend Israel. (As if sending $60 billion of advanced weaponry to Saudi Arabia is helping Israel). Notice that this poster did not respond when his claim was exposed for what it is - baseless.

My point is that when confronted with facts, these propagandizers will abruptly disappear from the thread. Knowledge and truth will shut them up.
Not only does the US support dictators it has helped overthrow democratically elected governments to install one. Operation Ajax or Mosaddegh ring a bell, probably not, your history might not go that far back. Lets see, the US does support the Saudis, while not a dictatorship, it about as far from a democracy as one can get otherwise. Egypt was another place one could look and being that the US propped up government so angered many of the hard wing Muslims that the Muslim Brotherhood was formed because of it. How about Iraq, remember that Saddam guy, you know the one shaking hands with Donald Rumsfeld all smiling and stuff. You know the place that was buying chemical and biological agents from the US and when the military protested, it was overruled by of all places the commerce dept.

No, America has never supported a dictator, not even that one guy... sheesh, whats his name, Islam Karimov or something, oh yeah, Bush invited him to the White House for a red carpet extravaganza, not long after he was known to have boiled dissidents alive for promoting that icky word, Democracy!

I'm still waiting on you to "reveal" as you called it, this secret truth about me that you have stashed away in your mind. Can't wait to hear it and in the meantime feel free to stalk me some more, I enjoy the attention.
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:22 PM
 
1,263 posts, read 1,253,696 times
Reputation: 460
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Not only does the US support dictators it has helped overthrow democratically elected governments to install one. Operation Ajax or Mosaddegh ring a bell, probably not, your history might not go that far back. Lets see, the US does support the Saudis, while not a dictatorship, it about as far from a democracy as one can get otherwise. Egypt was another place one could look and being that the US propped up government so angered many of the hard wing Muslims that the Muslim Brotherhood was formed because of it. How about Iraq, remember that Saddam guy, you know the one shaking hands with Donald Rumsfeld all smiling and stuff. You know the place that was buying chemical and biological agents from the US and when the military protested, it was overruled by of all places the commerce dept.

No, America has never supported a dictator, not even that one guy... sheesh, whats his name, Islam Karimov or something, oh yeah, Bush invited him to the White House for a red carpet extravaganza, not long after he was known to have boiled dissidents alive for promoting that icky word, Democracy!

I'm still waiting on you to "reveal" as you called it, this secret truth about me that you have stashed away in your mind. Can't wait to hear it and in the meantime feel free to stalk me some more, I enjoy the attention.
You (purposely?) went off on a tangent. The issue is not whether the US has or has not supported dictatorships. The issue is your claim that the US supports dictatorships, and you specifically mentioned Saudi Arabia, "because of our relationship with Israel".
I countered with what should be the obvious: it is OIL that that has been the main determinant of US policy toward the Saudi regime, not Israel.

And I certainly never referred to any "secret truth" about you. Just another one of your distortions, and a rather egocentric one. I said that knowledge and truth shuts up those like you. Looks like you proved me wrong.
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Old 10-11-2010, 06:44 PM
 
11,130 posts, read 8,216,583 times
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Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
Looks like you proved me wrong.
As I always do.
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Old 10-12-2010, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Michigan
11,642 posts, read 5,744,542 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lamontnow View Post
Chava,
Thanks for correcting that poster's fiction.
Immediately after Israel's declaration of independence on May 14, 1948, Arab armies occupied the area of what was supposed to be the Palestinian Arab state. They then invaded the infant state of Israel:
Israel was not recognized by the UN as a state until May 11, 1949. Had the Arabs won the war (too bad they didn't) there would be no nonsense about an Israeli "state" being invaded: Israel would today be remembered, if at all, on the list of defunct secessionist nations alongside Biafra, Manchukuo, Katanga and Acre.
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Old 10-12-2010, 01:13 PM
 
14,070 posts, read 11,438,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Israel was not recognized by the UN as a state until May 11, 1949. Had the Arabs won the war (too bad they didn't) there would be no nonsense about an Israeli "state" being invaded: Israel would today be remembered, if at all, on the list of defunct secessionist nations alongside Biafra, Manchukuo, Katanga and Acre.
The decision to create Israel by the UN was on November 29, 1947. Israel was established on May 15, 1948 and was immediately attacked by its Arab neighbors. As you pointed out the Arab nations lost the war by not being able to achieve their objective of Israel's destruction. So the Arab nations especially the Palestinians should finally come to terms with the reality of Israel's existence (being that it is now 2010).
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Michigan
11,642 posts, read 5,744,542 times
Reputation: 3561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
The decision to create Israel by the UN was on November 29, 1947. Israel was established on May 15, 1948 and was immediately attacked by its Arab neighbors.
The UN General Assembly approved a proposal to partition Palestine in 1947. It was rejected by both the Arabs and the extreme Israeli militias, was not acted on by the Security Council, and was never in legal effect.

Again, Israel was without UN recognition or representation until 1949, their declaration of independence notwithstanding. They were not "established" by any outside body; they declared independence and proceeded to grab what they wanted. When they were finally admitted to the UN, it was on the basis of their acceptance of Security Council Resolution 194, by which they promised to repatriate Arab refugees, a promise on which they immediately and conclusively reneged.
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Old 10-12-2010, 09:14 PM
 
11,130 posts, read 8,216,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chava61 View Post
The decision to create Israel by the UN was on November 29, 1947.
Sincerely, what right or authority does the UN have to "create" a nation? Who granted the UN this authority? If it has the authority to "create" a nation, then does it also have the authority to "nullify" a countries existence?
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