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View Poll Results: Make Drug Testing Mandatory for LI Welfare Recipients?
Yes 106 73.61%
No 38 26.39%
Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-08-2011, 07:44 AM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,221 posts, read 12,285,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
I understand being prone to addiction. Addiction is all over the place in my family. All four of my grandparents died early due to smoking, and my dad's dad was an alcoholic. My dad is also an alcoholic and my brother hasn't had much luck kicking his tendency to drink. On my mom's side there is drug addiction, alcoholism, prescription pill addiction, etc. If anyone were genetically predisposed to addiction, it'd be me. It could be argued that I'm addicted to food, but no doctor has ever told me that I have any reason to cut back on the amount of food I eat.

The solution to addiction is using your brain. People who don't want to be addicted to things like drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. do not have to be addicted to those things. The addictive substances do not force their way into the person's body... that cigarette doesn't light itself, pop itself into a person's mouth and automatically inflate the person's lungs with smoke. The person has to make a conscious decision to light the cigarette and inhale from it. The same is true about drinking from the bottle, or popping the pill. It is a conscious decision. Are those decisions skewed by "withdrawal"? Sure. But that's where strength has to come into play. If you want to break an addiction, you can break the addiction. If you fail to break the addiction, it is because you have chosen not to break the addiction. People are always in control of their addictions, for that reason.

I never said that I wanted to kill anyone. It is quite the contrary. God put all of us here for a reason... what I really want to see is people doing what God intends for them to do. However, you have to admit that if drug use and sale were made executable offenses, we would have a lot less of it. When we subsidize drugs by providing government money to people who spend it on drugs, all we get is more drug use... which sucks money from government coffers on law enforcement, indigent medical care, etc.

I want to see drugs eliminated from America by any means necessary. That will invariably improve our society.

By the way, when it comes to executable offenses, you should read Leviticus. God made quite a few things executable offenses from the beginning, because they went against His natural order of things.

Religion can also be considered a drug for some. I say this because if you do something consistly based upon tradition and the intepretation of someone else's readings you are no longer in control of your own thoughts and actions. The ancient books were meant to provide instructions and not laws to good living. Man's weakness and vulnerabilities leads to other ways to escape the torments of todays society. The fallacy of eliminating all drugs or even thing that you percieve as drugs will never happen. As many things as you deem as a "drug" there will be something else to take it's place. First you had alcohol, cocaine, heroin as the big three. Over the past 40 or so years now you have meth, ex, and so many prescription drugs that will make your head spin. So your battle with drugs is like taking a spoon to the beach to get rid of the sand. The main issue with the drug problem is not the actions of a few but the economic and moral issues that surround them. If would note that I did not list hemp as a drug since it is classified as one for racist and economic purposes and is the only substances that is naturally produced
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Old 11-08-2011, 08:04 AM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
1,935 posts, read 4,762,079 times
Reputation: 3317
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Some people start drinking because they cannot find work to support their families.
So let me get this straight. They can't find work to "support their families" (meaning afford to pay for food, housing, utilities, clothing, et al)... but somehow they manage to scrape money together to afford a drinking habit?

People like that are morons. Plain and simple. That's just plain wrong, no matter which way you look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
The best solution to end this problem is to be able to provide good employment to all. Btw when you speak of addiction you may want to be more specific, since many people actually believe that hemp addiction will keep people from working.
And the best way to provide good employment to all is to stop mortgaging our country to foreign creditors, relax our employment rules so that our jobs aren't sent overseas, and become more protectionist rather than globalist such that America looks out for the best interests of the Americans before playing international policeman / watchdog / whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
As for the cycle that you are talking about, I can only reply with an Huh? If someone has an addiction rather they are on assistance or not, they are going to feed that addiction.
Then they should do so using their own money... not mine. If they cannot afford to feed the addiction, they will not feed the addiction... or they will steal in order to afford feeding the addiction... and when they're caught, they should have their hands chopped off like they do out in Saudi Arabia. I'm guessing that if the penalty for theft were loss of hands, there'd be a lot less theft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Religion can also be considered a drug for some. I say this because if you do something consistly based upon tradition and the intepretation of someone else's readings you are no longer in control of your own thoughts and actions.
Not true, my friend. Do you watch football? When those players do their thing, following the plethora of rules they have to follow, are they no longer in control of their own thoughts and actions? When you follow the basic laws of the land such as how you shouldn't exceed the speed limit, is that evidence of you not being in control of your thoughts and actions? The answer is no. You are choosing to follow those rules because there are consequences for not following those rules. And if you're living like there is no God, you'd better be right.

I tell this to everyone. If you want to remove religion from the argument and go on cold hard logic, that's fine. So I live my life in a good, upstanding, morally conservative way... a life which few would feel is anything other than "good"... then I die and find out there is no eternal reward for having lived that way, nor would there have been an eternal punishment for living hedonistically. Oh well. Neutral outcome. But if there IS a reward for living that way, and a punishment for living hedonistically, I have earned the reward. If I lived hedonistically, in the first case I'd get the same neutral outcome and in the second case I'd earn the punishment. Using just cold logic, I'm STILL better off doing things "my way". (Luckily, there is a God. As a scientist, I can prove God using math. Ain't it great?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
The ancient books were meant to provide instructions and not laws to good living.
Open the Bible to the book of Leviticus and get reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
Man's weakness and vulnerabilities leads to other ways to escape the torments of todays society. The fallacy of eliminating all drugs or even thing that you percieve as drugs will never happen.
I agree with you there. But the argument here is that we should not be supporting this with taxpayer money. Yes, people will always have their drugs. Even those who don't consume addictive substances may be addicted to football or promiscuous sex or role-playing games. We're all addicted to something... the trick is to make sure we stick to beneficial addictions with no harmful aspects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
As many things as you deem as a "drug" there will be something else to take it's place. First you had alcohol, cocaine, heroin as the big three. Over the past 40 or so years now you have meth, ex, and so many prescription drugs that will make your head spin. So your battle with drugs is like taking a spoon to the beach to get rid of the sand.
Agreed again. But if you look at American history, especially over the last few decades, there have been a lot of people taking spoons to the beach... and the sand of our once-unwavering moral foundation is being eroded away a little bit at a time. Someday we're going to wake up in a soulless, morally bankrupt, socialist country and wonder how in the heck it got that way. Then we'll see our spoons......

Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime View Post
The main issue with the drug problem is not the actions of a few but the economic and moral issues that surround them. If would note that I did not list hemp as a drug since it is classified as one for racist and economic purposes and is the only substances that is naturally produced
Again you are correct. But are we doing anything to improve America's economic state and moral state? No. If anything, most of what's been done in the last 50 years has served to tear those two things down. Three generations ago, everything we consumed was made here. These days, you go to Wal-Mart and even some of our basic food is imported from abroad... not to mention how 99% of what's on their shelves is made somewhere other than the USA. We can no longer pray in school, the "one nation under God" is now one nation under many gods (except that pesky Christian God who seems to be persona non grata anymore)... we're killing ourselves slowly. Beware of the spoons....
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:26 AM
 
Location: A great city, by a Great Lake!
15,896 posts, read 11,947,684 times
Reputation: 7502
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
So let me get this straight. They can't find work to "support their families" (meaning afford to pay for food, housing, utilities, clothing, et al)... but somehow they manage to scrape money together to afford a drinking habit?

People like that are morons. Plain and simple. That's just plain wrong, no matter which way you look at it.



And the best way to provide good employment to all is to stop mortgaging our country to foreign creditors, relax our employment rules so that our jobs aren't sent overseas, and become more protectionist rather than globalist such that America looks out for the best interests of the Americans before playing international policeman / watchdog / whatever.



Then they should do so using their own money... not mine. If they cannot afford to feed the addiction, they will not feed the addiction... or they will steal in order to afford feeding the addiction... and when they're caught, they should have their hands chopped off like they do out in Saudi Arabia. I'm guessing that if the penalty for theft were loss of hands, there'd be a lot less theft.



Not true, my friend. Do you watch football? When those players do their thing, following the plethora of rules they have to follow, are they no longer in control of their own thoughts and actions? When you follow the basic laws of the land such as how you shouldn't exceed the speed limit, is that evidence of you not being in control of your thoughts and actions? The answer is no. You are choosing to follow those rules because there are consequences for not following those rules. And if you're living like there is no God, you'd better be right.

I tell this to everyone. If you want to remove religion from the argument and go on cold hard logic, that's fine. So I live my life in a good, upstanding, morally conservative way... a life which few would feel is anything other than "good"... then I die and find out there is no eternal reward for having lived that way, nor would there have been an eternal punishment for living hedonistically. Oh well. Neutral outcome. But if there IS a reward for living that way, and a punishment for living hedonistically, I have earned the reward. If I lived hedonistically, in the first case I'd get the same neutral outcome and in the second case I'd earn the punishment. Using just cold logic, I'm STILL better off doing things "my way". (Luckily, there is a God. As a scientist, I can prove God using math. Ain't it great?)



Open the Bible to the book of Leviticus and get reading.



I agree with you there. But the argument here is that we should not be supporting this with taxpayer money. Yes, people will always have their drugs. Even those who don't consume addictive substances may be addicted to football or promiscuous sex or role-playing games. We're all addicted to something... the trick is to make sure we stick to beneficial addictions with no harmful aspects.



Agreed again. But if you look at American history, especially over the last few decades, there have been a lot of people taking spoons to the beach... and the sand of our once-unwavering moral foundation is being eroded away a little bit at a time. Someday we're going to wake up in a soulless, morally bankrupt, socialist country and wonder how in the heck it got that way. Then we'll see our spoons......



Again you are correct. But are we doing anything to improve America's economic state and moral state? No. If anything, most of what's been done in the last 50 years has served to tear those two things down. Three generations ago, everything we consumed was made here. These days, you go to Wal-Mart and even some of our basic food is imported from abroad... not to mention how 99% of what's on their shelves is made somewhere other than the USA. We can no longer pray in school, the "one nation under God" is now one nation under many gods (except that pesky Christian God who seems to be persona non grata anymore)... we're killing ourselves slowly. Beware of the spoons....

You know, I may not agree with everything that you're saying regarding drugs, however; the one thing that piqued my interest is that as a scientist you could prove their is a God through math. That is very interesting, and while I do enjoy science and it's necessities for explaining things, I also believe in God, and would be extremely curious as to how you can prove God's existence by using math. I mean, I get the gist, but please enlighten me. Don't mean to get off topic, but that caught my eye.
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Old 11-08-2011, 09:30 AM
 
Location: The Land of Reason
13,221 posts, read 12,285,351 times
Reputation: 3554
Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
So let me get this straight. They can't find work to "support their families" (meaning afford to pay for food, housing, utilities, clothing, et al)... but somehow they manage to scrape money together to afford a drinking habit?

People like that are morons. Plain and simple. That's just plain wrong, no matter which way you look at it.

I never said that it was right, I'm just saying that it happens



And the best way to provide good employment to all is to stop mortgaging our country to foreign creditors, relax our employment rules so that our jobs aren't sent overseas, and become more protectionist rather than globalist such that America looks out for the best interests of the Americans before playing international policeman / watchdog / whatever.

This is an agreeable point

Then they should do so using their own money... not mine. If they cannot afford to feed the addiction, they will not feed the addiction... or they will steal in order to afford feeding the addiction... and when they're caught, they should have their hands chopped off like they do out in Saudi Arabia. I'm guessing that if the penalty for theft were loss of hands, there'd be a lot less theft.

Thats just it, no one cares about what happens in improverish areas of this country or the world unless there is something there that they want. I believe that we should help those who want to be helped in conquering their addiction and not feeding it.



Not true, my friend. Do you watch football? When those players do their thing, following the plethora of rules they have to follow, are they no longer in control of their own thoughts and actions? When you follow the basic laws of the land such as how you shouldn't exceed the speed limit, is that evidence of you not being in control of your thoughts and actions? The answer is no. You are choosing to follow those rules because there are consequences for not following those rules. And if you're living like there is no God, you'd better be right.

Actually they do have control of their thoughts and actions. Football has rules that govern those acts only on the field and for compensation. But they do have a choice and many of them break the rules if they can, thus you have penalties. What about those whose belief system is diffrent from yours? You cannot penalize someone that believes in slightly different rules then yourself (even if they are right)

I tell this to everyone. If you want to remove religion from the argument and go on cold hard logic, that's fine. So I live my life in a good, upstanding, morally conservative way... a life which few would feel is anything other than "good"... then I die and find out there is no eternal reward for having lived that way, nor would there have been an eternal punishment for living hedonistically. Oh well. Neutral outcome. But if there IS a reward for living that way, and a punishment for living hedonistically, I have earned the reward. If I lived hedonistically, in the first case I'd get the same neutral outcome and in the second case I'd earn the punishment. Using just cold logic, I'm STILL better off doing things "my way". (Luckily, there is a God. As a scientist, I can prove God using math. Ain't it great?)



Open the Bible to the book of Leviticus and get reading.

Why not the Torah?


I agree with you there. But the argument here is that we should not be supporting this with taxpayer money. Yes, people will always have their drugs. Even those who don't consume addictive substances may be addicted to football or promiscuous sex or role-playing games. We're all addicted to something... the trick is to make sure we stick to beneficial addictions with no harmful aspects.

Soo, do you suggest that we just cut them off? What do you think they are going to do then? The hungry will eat rather you give them the means to do so or not


Agreed again. But if you look at American history, especially over the last few decades, there have been a lot of people taking spoons to the beach... and the sand of our once-unwavering moral foundation is being eroded away a little bit at a time. Someday we're going to wake up in a soulless, morally bankrupt, socialist country and wonder how in the heck it got that way. Then we'll see our spoons......

We already live in a partial socialist society and it is not all that bad, think VA and medicare. As far as it being morally bankrupt, we have crossed that road along time ago. And regarding souless, how can we send our troops to fight in a foreign land under false pretenses and kill over 100,000 people?


Again you are correct. But are we doing anything to improve America's economic state and moral state? No. If anything, most of what's been done in the last 50 years has served to tear those two things down. Three generations ago, everything we consumed was made here. These days, you go to Wal-Mart and even some of our basic food is imported from abroad... not to mention how 99% of what's on their shelves is made somewhere other than the USA. We can no longer pray in school, the "one nation under God" is now one nation under many gods (except that pesky Christian God who seems to be persona non grata anymore)... we're killing ourselves slowly. Beware of the spoons....
The God of the good book has been replace by the "god" of money. It no longer matters how we obtain it or what country we destroy economically to do it. Many people are not familiar about the evils this country does but here is something that many do not think about
[SIZE=3]Interview - Confessions of an Economic Hit Man - Part I - YouTube[/SIZE]
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Old 11-09-2011, 08:17 AM
 
Location: I live wherever I am.
1,935 posts, read 4,762,079 times
Reputation: 3317
Thats just it, no one cares about what happens in improverish areas of this country or the world unless there is something there that they want. I believe that we should help those who want to be helped in conquering their addiction and not feeding it.

Okay, I'm cool with that. But why should that be left up to the thieves in Washington (or whatever your state's capital happens to be, in this case Albany) to decide? Why should we have "help" legislated? So let the people who want to help, render help... and everyone else who doesn't give a rip or would just let the drug addicts overdose themselves to death, can keep their money and spend it on what they wish to purchase! Here's the thing... people who seek help actually want to break their addictions. It could be argued that those people have already started breaking the addiction. It's the people who would take their welfare checks and immediately go to their drug dealers who should not get welfare. I don't have a problem with welfare checks being spent on rehab.

Actually they do have control of their thoughts and actions. Football has rules that govern those acts only on the field and for compensation. But they do have a choice and many of them break the rules if they can, thus you have penalties. What about those whose belief system is diffrent from yours? You cannot penalize someone that believes in slightly different rules then yourself (even if they are right)

It's not my decision to make. I am not God. I can't penalize anyone. But God can, and God definitely will. There can be only one right way, regardless of how many different "other ways" people come up with. It's like solving a complex maze. Unless you're lucky, the first path you take will turn out to dead-end somewhere. Sooner or later you find the one "right way", but any other "way" you took prior to finding it at least APPEARED to be right, and turned out not to be. That's the path a lot of people are taking these days... the ways that appear to be right and will turn out not to be. Yes, I know there are a lot of religions. How can I stand up and say that mine is right and everyone else's is wrong? Because I follow the TRUE GOD, and they don't. Again, I'm just the messenger. I didn't create the world... I merely follow the Creator.


[Open the Bible to the book of Leviticus and get reading.]

Why not the Torah?

Well, to the best of my understanding, the Torah is the first five books of the Bible. Given that Leviticus is #3, it'd be in the Torah. So, it could easily be said that you can open up the Torah to Leviticus and get reading. I wouldn't know... despite having lots of Jewish friends as a kid, I'm not as well-versed on Judaism as I could be.



[I agree with you there. But the argument here is that we should not be supporting this with taxpayer money. Yes, people will always have their drugs. Even those who don't consume addictive substances may be addicted to football or promiscuous sex or role-playing games. We're all addicted to something... the trick is to make sure we stick to beneficial addictions with no harmful aspects.]

Soo, do you suggest that we just cut them off? What do you think they are going to do then? The hungry will eat rather you give them the means to do so or not

They will likely commit crimes, and if the people against whom they commit crimes are armed with guns as I am, the criminals will be shot dead and then that improves the gene pool. Problem solved.

Or, there is a much more pleasant alternative. Those who are not criminally minded will then step up and do whatever they have to do, to get work, so that they can get food. I guarantee that there are a lot of people on "public assistance" of various kinds who don't HAVE to be on public assistance but choose to be. Take my brother, for example. When he was canned from his job a couple of years ago, he went on unemployment. The state gave him about $1,700 per month to sit on his butt and do nothing. Oh sure, he had to say he was looking for work, but he wasn't doing much. All along, he was saying that he could very easily get a job selling cars or something like that, and make $30-35K per year. However, he didn't want to sell cars, and he wanted to hold out for a better salary. That $1,700 per month paid his bills and gave him plenty of leftover money to have fun, as he was living with our parents and had no housing nor utility expenses. My parents supported his decision by saying "hey, we've paid into this system for decades and it's time we got some of our money back"... and they're usually rip-roarin' conservatives. (However, it's tough to argue that logic, isn't it? It is technically my parents' money, and my money and my brother's money, which we all earned legitimately, coming back into the family.)

So, you see, he was able to sit around and do nothing because that way of live was subsidized. I guarantee you, if he didn't have that, and his bills weren't going to get paid if he weren't working, he'd have gone out and gotten that car sales job so he could make his bills. When you subsidize something, you get more of it. When you tax something, you get less of it.


We already live in a partial socialist society and it is not all that bad, think VA and medicare. As far as it being morally bankrupt, we have crossed that road along time ago. And regarding souless, how can we send our troops to fight in a foreign land under false pretenses and kill over 100,000 people?

A partial socialist society is ALWAYS bad. America wasn't founded upon principles of socialism; it was founded upon principles of Christianity, conservatism, and capitalism. I don't have a problem with VA, for veterans and their families... after all, they serve us, we should serve them in return especially since their work is almost always physically devastating even if they don't get injured in combat.

Medicare? Please. If we REALLY needed socialized medical care, why is it that we waited until the 1960's to have it? People lived long healthy lives before that. Can it really be proven that the increase in life expectancy these days has to do with anything more than people living healthier lives, on the whole? After all, Amish people don't partake in lots of the modern medical breakthroughs that we've seen in the last who knows how many decades, but yet their life expectancy is the same as any other American's. The difference? They don't smoke nor drink... nor use drugs ... or at least they're not supposed to, meaning their incidence thereof is WAY lower than that of normal Americans. Also, they are WAY more physically active than most Americans, so they get their exercise naturally.

Moral bankruptcy - we started down that road a long time ago and have been making more and more progress, that's for sure... but we still have further we could go. "Mission creep" will always ensure this. If we legalize marijuana, next it'll be a push to legalize cocaine. Once that succeeds after the resistance force gets battled to exhaustion, what's next? If we legalize gay marriage, what's next? Legalizing bestiality? ("How can you say it's a bad thing when it's real love?") Certain things may not be that terrible taken by themselves, but the problem is that they're never taken by themselves. They are seen as stepping stones to other victories. "Hey, we won this one, let's try for something else!" So, we could still make quite a few more withdrawals from the ever-shrinking bank account of morality.

Soulless - I agree with you here. Let's bring all of the troops back, and refuse entry to anyone who hails from a country known to sponsor terrorism, harbor Islamic fundamentalism to any extent, or simply hate America. It would require profiling. As far as I'm concerned, if profiling keeps us safe, it is a good thing to have. If there really are "good Muslims" who believe that Islam is NOT a religion of war, and would distance themselves from the Islamic fundamentalist movement, they can squash Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah, whatever, in their own homelands and THEN when these movements are dead and stinking, we'll let them into America. These people HATE US. They have hated Christianity, the foundation of America, for hundreds of years. And we're letting them into our country?! Can you imagine what'd happen if a bunch of Christians tried to infiltrate a country like Iran? They'd be executed in a heartbeat! We never know whether or not an immigrant from such a country is "good" or "bad"... after all, Osama bin Laden was in America legally for a while, and he sure turned out to be bad... so let's just refuse entry to all of them!

After all, we're fighting this war because, "if we don't get 'em on their turf, they'll get us on ours!" An agreeable notion, but it's only true because America refuses to profile immigrants. The best we have is a "no fly" list. No, sorry, I don't care who you are. You might be a good person... heck, the valedictorian of my 400+ member high school graduating class was Iranian and he was a really nice guy... but the point is, we don't know. Stomp it out on your home turf, and then we'll welcome you to America. Until that time comes, you are as likely to be an enemy as anyone else.

Look at what happened in Libya. They got rid of Gaddafi, with our help... and now what... the new government is looking to institute Islamic Sharia law! And we call that a victory?!

********
.

The God of the good book has been replace by the "god" of money. It no longer matters how we obtain it or what country we destroy economically to do it. Many people are not familiar about the evils this country does but here is something that many do not think about

I rarely watch videos... I would rather read. However, if you're talking about evils that America has committed in the name of money, I'd believe every word. All you have to do to see the epidemic of greed in America is look around you. Look at the guy who drives a $100,000 Mercedes-Benz S550. What would've been the problem with a $25,000 Chevrolet Impala? Same size car, and there's nothing wrong with them. Why do families of four need to live in 3,500 square foot houses? (Or larger?!) My mom grew up in a family of seven, living in a 2-bedroom house that was no more than 700 square feet, and to this day their family has a tight bond shared by few others that I've ever seen. I could give endless examples.

And do you know why we are consumed by greed?

Because we have turned our backs on God.

This is the main reason why we have a drug problem in this country, getting back to the original topic of this thread. The accountability factor isn't there. If people felt accountable to God, they wouldn't consume ANY harmful substances... not even tobacco products. (And for those of you who might question my diet... "do YOU consume fatty foods?"... I offer this. I've never taken a puff in my life, and I'm perfectly healthy. But if I stopped eating, I wouldn't be. If I stopped eating fat, my liver would produce it because the body needs fat. There is very little that can be found in natural food which the human body doesn't need, to a certain measure.)

If people felt accountable to God, they would work very diligently to ensure that the right thing was always done. And the right thing is NOT supporting people's drug habits by throwing money at them. That is the wrong thing, for sure.
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