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If tea party members and supporters repeatedly complain that only the rich pay taxes and 47% of Americans don't pay any taxes, what is their solution for this? Are they ok with half the country not paying taxes? How do they want to remedy this? They've made it clear that they want the rich to pay less taxes, but what about the people who don't pay, which is close to half of Americans, by their estimates. If they claim that they don't want to raise taxes on the lower half, are they essentially saying it's ok they don't pay taxes. If that's the case, why the complaining? Isn't it unfair that the rich would still continue to be the only ones that pay taxes, according to them.
You can cut spending all you want, you still need taxes. I'll ask again, which I doubt I'll get an answer. Do you think that 50% that don't pay ought to pay? Yes or no?
YES.
Maybe if everyone pays something toward running the ridiculously overlarge bureaucratic machine we call the federal government, more of us will pay attention to it, and we'll finally elect some people who will work at shrinking it, so that more of us can keep more of our own money.
Let us not forget that almost all workers pay FICA tax starting with the first dollar they earn, even though many do not pay Federal Income Tax. Before the income tax, Federal government was supported mostly by tariffs, which could be as high as 40%. It would be politically impossible today, but with all the goods and services imported today, can you imagine the money it would bring in!
How can you have a tax "increase" when they pay nothing. Let's increase their taxes by twice as much. 2 x 0 is still O.
To answer your question in a re-worded way. "Do you want the 50% of peolple who pay no taxes to now start to pay taxes? YES. Everybody should have to contribute. You want to play in the game, put in the ante.
I agree with your premise that everyone should pay taxes. Your first paragraph, however, puzzles me. You can in fact have an increase from 0. Increase does not mean multiply. It means make larger. Let's increase their taxes by 1. 0+1=1.
To be honest, I think the first step should be to cap any tax refund at the amount of tax paid. If your situation is such that you don't make enough money to pay INTO the federal government, I can live with that. But no one should EVER get a TAX REFUND check that is larger than the total tax payment they made. That's just wealth redistribution and nothing but.
Why should the middle class, in your opinion, be any different than any other income group?
It's not my fault you have a problem with those that make more than you.
I believe in a flat tax for everybody. No deductions, no exceptions
I don't believe in MASSIVE tax increases to the middle class and the VAST MAJORITY of the country in order to give MASSIVE tax cuts to the richest of the rich. That is EXACTLY what a flat tax would do, especially one that doesn't allow deductions.
Well as far as off your paycheck also keep in mind you have state income tax (depending on your state)
Anyway as far as what figures to run.
First would like to know what your exemption amount for the first two kids are, and if that exemption would also go towards a single person or married couple or just for the kids.
Now from your previous comments, you would not allow itemized deductions such as mortgage interest or property taxes to be deducted. Would you also not allow the standard deduction? Or would you allow a standard deduction and if so how much?
Anyway
Single person making $35,000
Married couple making $50,000
Married Couple making $60,000
Married couple with two kids making $60,000
Married couple making $75,000, paying $1,100 a month in mortgage interest and $5,000 in property taxes
Married couple two kids making $75,000, $1,100 a month in mortgage interest, $5,000 in property taxes
Married couple $105,000, $1,500 a month in mortgage interest and $8,000 in property taxes
Married couple $105,000 three kids $1,500 a month in mortgage interest $8,000 in property taxes
I know running the numbers can be time consuming. So if you want just say the deductions you would allow and the amount Such as personal exemption for you and spouse? yes or no? if yes what is the amount? What is the exemption amount for a child? Standard deduction allowed? yes or no? If yes, what is the amount if single? what is the amount if married?
I'll do the math myself from there.
Just run it at 26% total, no deducations if you want. Remember though, theres no deficit spending involved in that, and an additional 1% towards paying off national debt (so about 3% higher then your typical taxation rate for the same year). Also, don't forget to run lifetime numbers. Getting a tax break for 18 years may be nice, but over around an average 45 years of working it would be nicer to just have low taxes in general.
Just run it at 26% total, no deducations if you want. Remember though, theres no deficit spending involved in that, and an additional 1% towards paying off national debt (so about 3% higher then your typical taxation rate for the same year). Also, don't forget to run lifetime numbers. Getting a tax break for 18 years may be nice, but over around an average 45 years of working it would be nicer to just have low taxes in general.
I was planning on running it for lifetime, its why each income level has married with no kids, and married with kids. I will also play around with dependents in college or dependents still living at home since that is true for many for a few years as well.
One more question before I run the numbers. You have a breakout of 13% for flat tax, and 13% for a combination medicare/medicaid, I assume you meant social security as well. The current FICA is 7.45%, so do you wish to revisit that before I run the numbers? Because you would be paying far more than the current payroll taxes going by your 13% figure.
I'm asking because I want to come up with an accurate representation of your proposal as possible to make the comparisons with.
If you want I could also disregard any of the social security/medicare type taxes, and leave that to another time, and instead just compare each situation I mentioned earlier and what the taxes would be under the current system compared to your proposal with no deductions and a 13% flat tax.
I will leave off any social security, medicare taxes (will address that later if you would like0
And will focus on the differences in taxes between a 13% flat tax with no exemptions, compared to the current system under the income amounts and situations listed earlier. If you decide that you would favor some type of personal or spousal exemption and the amount as well as an amount for an exemption amount per child/dependent I will add those in later. For now strictly the 13% flat tax with no deductions, exemptions, etc compared to current system. All the figures for how it would be currently comes directly from inputting the data into mytaxburden.com (which comes from the Tax Foundation). These figures will be for the 2011 tax year and does not include the making work to pay credit which currently is $400 for singles and $800 for married couples.
Single person making $35,000. Currently a single person making $35,000 who does not itemize deductions will pay $3,400 on taxes. Under your scenario the taxes for a single person making $35,000 would be $4,550. An increase of $1,150.
A married couple with no other dependents making $50,000. Under current plans if that married couple does not take any itemized deductions the taxes would be $3,800. Under your scenario the taxes for the married couple making $50,000 would be $6,500. An increase of $2,700.
Married couple with no dependents making $60,000. Under the current plan the married couple not taking any itemized deductions, would pay $5,300 in taxes. Under your scenario the married couple with no dependents would pay $7,800 in taxes. An increase of $2,500.
Now lets say that married couple has two kids who are 17 or over but still living at home and counted as dependents (college kids, 20 somethings still at home). Under your scenario the taxes would be the same at $7,800. Under the current system it would be $4,190. So under your system it would be an an increase of $3,610.
Now take the same family, but the kids are under the age of 17. Under your scenario again its $7,800, the current system taxes would be $2,190. That would be an increase of $5,610 under your system.
Now for $75,000. For this I will take a married couple with and without kids like I did above. Under the current system I will also look at two different scenarios, someone who may rent or have a low or no mortgage payment and therefore take the standard deduction and someone who uses itemized deductions instead of a standard deduction ($5,000 in property taxes $1,100 a month in mortgage interest)
$75,000 no kids standard deduction. Currently its $7,550. If they were taking an itemized deduction with $5,000 in property taxes and $1,100 a month in mortgage interest, taxes would be $6,560. Under your system it would be $9,750. So an increase of $2,200 from someone who would take the standard deduction and an increase of $3,190 over someone taking the itemized deduction explained above.
Now the same married couple and same scenario with two kids/dependents 17 or over. That $9,750 is the same under your proposal, the standard deduction would cause taxes of $6,440, and an itemized deduction with the parameters above, taxes would then be $5,450. So your proposal would cause an increase of $3,310 for someone taking the standard deduction, and $4,300 for someone taking the itemized deduction mentioned above
Now same set up, but those two kids are both under 17. Same $9,750 in taxes under your proposal, the taxes for a standard deduction would be $4,440, and $3,450 for an itemized deduction with the above parameters. This results in an increase of $5,310 for a family with two kids under 17 taking a standard deduction making $75,000 , and an increase of $6,300 if they took the itemized deduction mentioned above
I will take the same approach for the $105,000 ( I will use 2 kids instead of the 3 I mentioned earlier)
Married couple no kids $105,000 taking the standard deduction, would pay $13,750, under your plan they would pay $13,650. Ooh you found a savings of $100. However, chances are most married couples making $105,000 aren't taking a standard deduction. Take someone paying $8,000 a year in property taxes and $1,500 a month in mortgage interest, they will be taking an itemized deduction (even property taxes and mortgage amounts far lower than that would be taking an itemized deduction). Once we add that into the mix, the taxes drop down to $10,150, so it would be an increase of $3,500 under your plan. Hell I will even throw in a much more modest $4,000 in property taxes and $1,000 in mortgage interest a month. In that case its $12,650
Enter two kids 17 and over into the mix and the taxes with a standard deduction drop to $11,900. So $1,750 increase under your plan, throw in the two itemized deductions in the above example you are dropping to $8,780 (1st example) for an increase of $4,870 or for the more modest itemized deduction $10,800 , which would be an increase of $2,850 under your plan.
Two kids under 17 those taxes under a standard deduction drops to $9,900 with a $3,750 an increase under your plan under a standard deduction.. To $6,780 and $8,800 under the two itemized deduction scenarios laid out, which would result in increases of $4,850 and $6,870 under your plan.
Lots of figures there so might be hard to follow. I didn't even go into other possible itemized deductions, but basically based off the plan you proposed, you would need to get to a little over $100,000 before you see any decreases in taxes under your proposal. Anyone making less would see increases. And even for those making a bit over $100,000 the only way you would see any decreases under your proposal would be if you have no kids you can claim as dependents and if you either rent or live in a very low COL area and therefore do not itemize deductions. If you have kids or itemize your deductions you would go quite a bit higher before you start paying lower or hell even equal taxes under your proposal.
I agree with your premise that everyone should pay taxes. Your first paragraph, however, puzzles me. You can in fact have an increase from 0. Increase does not mean multiply. It means make larger. Let's increase their taxes by 1. 0+1=1.
I guess it's the wording. Instead of saying a tax increase say start paying taxes.
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