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Old 10-28-2010, 04:00 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
I love rebellion!
Careful what we wish for Citizen...
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:25 AM
 
40,246 posts, read 24,539,278 times
Reputation: 12736
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
I don't think it can get much simpler than what I just said. If you need me to be more simpler, I'm sorry. google is your friend.
graduation students prayed at graduation - Google Search

I do believe you and I have had this conversation before, as well. Maybe not, but I think we have. Won't take me long to search my posts and find out.

I know one thing. My headline news interests are much more different than yours.
I didn't ask you to be simple. I asked you to be specific.
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
9,056 posts, read 4,511,342 times
Reputation: 1434
Arrow That's in There?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I didn't ask you to be simple. I asked you to be specific.
1) Separation of Church and State words are not written in the 1st Amendment.
2) Separation of Church and State are words that were written in a letter to a church.
3) The same letter was used to interpret the 1st Amendment in 1962 to establish a law prevention of prayer in public schools.
4) Prayer is a religious expression and or speech.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: First Amendment (I will assume you click the link and read additional information)

However, they did make a law, which prohibits free exercise and free speech or expression through public prayer, however expression of groups public voice against, prayer is allowed. (a double standard) They can bring suit and spend tax payer money every time they do so.

Which brings us to today and graduation students who act according to their rights they believe are covered through the protection and actual words of the 1st Amendment.

Example: ACLU Sues Santa Rosa Over Prayer; Seeks Records From Escambia Schools : NorthEscambia.com


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya-FmMC8zwE

Quote:
the law would have as an option:
1) Obey the law, and suffer the consequences.
2) Obey the law, suffer the consequences, but seek to amend the law.
3) Ignore the law; pretend it doesn't exist.
4) "Interpret" the law to mean what it "should" mean.


the First Amendment, because these provisions have a singular virtue: they are absolute, with the clearest of all constitutional meanings. If the Supreme Court can apply choices 3 and 4 with absolute provisions of a high-profile Amendment, just imagine what they can do with the vaguer, less prominent clauses. Introduction
In essence we are loosing our free speech rights. By we, I do mean all Americans. Not only in prayer expression, but in other avenues, as well. (that is a whole other google search)


"The First Amendment". It's supposed to protect us.
However, congress is making laws based on the contents of a letter, rather than the contents of the Constitution. Thus, the 1st Amendment is being ignored by congress.

Our freedoms in America are but an illusion.

DC, you could google this, same as me. It doesn't get much more, 'specific' than the news headlines all across America and students who ask, why can we not have prayer at our graduation, it is after all our freedom to do so? The more students who ask the question why, the greater chance a future generation will over turn the ruling of the Supreme Court of 1962.

They will take it upon themselves to obtain government jobs and will be dedicated to, public expression of prayer and the rights of free speech. Old people die out and the new generation, will bring changes.

That's what kids do, they ask, why. The less sense the answer makes from the adults, the more they will do, to make it, make sense. When they acknowledge that the letter does not reconcile with the words of the 1st Amendment, then that generation will proceed accordingly.

Until then....conversations such as ours will continue.
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:21 PM
 
40,246 posts, read 24,539,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
1)
However, they did make a law, which prohibits free exercise and free speech or expression through public prayer, however expression of groups public voice against, prayer is allowed. (a double standard) They can bring suit and spend tax payer money every time they do so.

What law???? This is what I asked you to be specific about. And which you've not answered after repeated requests to you to do so. What law stops you or any other individual from bowing your head in prayer in public?


Which brings us to today and graduation students who act according to their rights they believe are covered through the protection and actual words of the 1st Amendment.

Example: ACLU Sues Santa Rosa Over Prayer; Seeks Records From Escambia Schools : NorthEscambia.com

In essence we are loosing our free speech rights. By we, I do mean all Americans. Not only in prayer expression, but in other avenues, as well. (that is a whole other google search)


You're not losing free speech rights. You can pray to your heart's content. You cannot compel me to pray. That's all. You can do whatever, but you can't make others to pray or to worship or to follow YOUR beliefs.

"The First Amendment". It's supposed to protect us.

It does. It protects you from me imposing my beliefs on you, AND from YOU imposing YOUR beliefs on ME.

However, congress is making laws based on the contents of a letter, rather than the contents of the Constitution. Thus, the 1st Amendment is being ignored by congress.

What laws? Can you name any of those laws?


Our freedoms in America are but an illusion.

Your freedom is a reality. You just want more than freedom. You want everyone else to be compelled to agree with your beliefs.


DC, you could google this, same as me. It doesn't get much more, 'specific' than the news headlines all across America and students who ask, why can we not have prayer at our graduation, it is after all our freedom to do so? The more students who ask the question why, the greater chance a future generation will over turn the ruling of the Supreme Court of 1962.


So I take it you googled and didn't find any specific laws to complain about.

They will take it upon themselves to obtain government jobs and will be dedicated to, public expression of prayer and the rights of free speech. Old people die out and the new generation, will bring changes.

That's what kids do, they ask, why. The less sense the answer makes from the adults, the more they will do, to make it, make sense. When they acknowledge that the letter does not reconcile with the words of the 1st Amendment, then that generation will proceed accordingly.

Until then....conversations such as ours will continue.
The letter does reconcile with the words of the First Amendment. You're just so focused on making everyone bow their heads in prayer when you want to pray that you can't see how unfair that is to the people who don't believe the same way you do. I don't believe in your religion. But I'm not stopping you from praying. I'm just stopping you from making me pray alongside you. Because why should I pray alongside you. It's obvious you don't respect me or people who feel like I do. But you want me to respect you so much that I should pretend to believe as you do. To make your life easier.
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:23 PM
 
25 posts, read 31,672 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
To which posts are you referring?

There is a search tool at the top, go to advance search, search this thread, put in field the name that you use and this is the only post found in this thread.

My apologies, I mixed this thread up with a very similar one on the separation of church and state.

A poster raised several issues concerning the consequences of the 1st amendment not applying to the states. I pointed out that no one in that thread ever bothered to address these issues.
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:36 PM
 
25 posts, read 31,672 times
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With respect to prayers at public school graduations, we must first realize that the free exercise is not absolute. None of the rights in the first amendment are absolute. Do we agree on that? Certainly, we all know that our free speech rights are not absolute. There are several notable exceptions based both on the content and concerning time, place, manner restrictions, for instance.

We don't have the absolute right to pray whenever, whereever we want. It would be absurd to think we do.

Can a public school student tell his teacher "hold on teach, i'm praying right now. let me get back to you when i'm done"? Clearly, no, this is unnaceptable. Maybe his parent, who doesn't know a thing about the first amendment, will file a lawsuit, but the outcome is clear - there was no constitutional violation by telling the student he cannot pray at that specific time.

That's just one example. I'll briefly address the problems that arise when an individual who happens to be a government employee (teacher, coach, principle, etc, of a public school) wants to pray around/with students on school grounds during school hours. Can the individual claim a violation of the first amendment when the school says you cannot pray in such manner? Well, technically yes, but as above, the claim is meritless. When he became a government employee, he surrendered some of this free exercise rights as they relate to this particular situation (with students, during school hours/during a school/sanctioned activity, etc).

If we allow government employees to assert free exercise claims in situations like these, the establishment clause is made useless.

Now, for public school students wishing to have large-scale praying exercises at graduations, this too is unlawful because it necessarily gives the impression of the school's endorsement. You cannot have potentially hundreds of people engaging in the performance of a religious exercise at events like these simply because the majority wishes it to happen. The first amendment is a shield for the minority, not a sword for the majority. The graduating class cannot simply vote away the constitutional rights of the minority students to be free from being coerced into participating in such exercises.

In addition, there is nothing stopping large amounts of students from praying with each other before or after the graduation ceremony, just as there is nothing stopping large groups of students praying with each other during lunch or at their lockers, or at other similar times of the day, despite the fact that it is on school grounds and during school hours.

Why do people think they are justified in praying whenever they want, whereever they want? I don't understand why they think they are either entitled, or why they feel like they must have this ability. These are minor restrictions on your 'free exercise' rights.

actonbell, are you of the opinion that the first amendment does not apply to the states, or just that the establishment clause should not be so broadly construed?
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Old 10-28-2010, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
9,056 posts, read 4,511,342 times
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Default It's in There?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
The letter does reconcile with the words of the First Amendment. You're just so focused on making everyone bow their heads in prayer when you want to pray that you can't see how unfair that is to the people who don't believe the same way you do. I don't believe in your religion. But I'm not stopping you from praying. I'm just stopping you from making me pray alongside you. Because why should I pray alongside you. It's obvious you don't respect me or people who feel like I do. But you want me to respect you so much that I should pretend to believe as you do. To make your life easier.
actonbell wrote:
Quote:
DC, you could google this, same as me. It doesn't get much more, 'specific' than the news headlines all across America and students who ask, why can we not have prayer at our graduation, it is after all our freedom to do so? The more students who ask the question why, the greater chance a future generation will over turn the ruling of the Supreme Court of 1962.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
So I take it you googled and didn't find any specific laws to complain about.
Do you mean to tell me that you have lived and learned, yet you do not know the Supreme Court banished public school prayer in 1962? And that in 1972, 10 years later the Lemon Tests were established? And that voluntary prayers, even those who wish to do so at graduation ceremonies have been prohibited (not protected) by the use of a letter used to interpret the 1st Amendment.

If you do not know that, then what the hell are we talking about? Also, in assuming that you are not aware of that case, then I suppose you have no knowledge of the cases that have been before the courts as subsequent in nature, to the 1962 case.

  • Engel v. Vitale. (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1066 - broken link)
  • Abington Township School District v. Schempp, (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?case=District_v_Schempp - broken link)
  • Wallace v. Jaffree (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1929 - broken link)
  • Lee v. Weisman (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1381 - broken link)
  • Santa Fe v. Doe, (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1699 - broken link)
  • Tinker v. Des Moines, (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1860 - broken link)
firstamendmentcenter.org: Religious Liberty in Public Schools - topic (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/publicschools/topic.aspx?topic=school_prayer - broken link)

Not to mention the one that I did google as you read in my posts and still insist that I did not provide a specific case. I even provided for your entertainment a video, how did you miss it. (this is on you)

No people do not have to stand there along side me if I am praying within their presence. There is a door way leading to the outside....but instead of using it, they will stand there and say, stop touching me with your prayer.

DC Ridge, I can tell, by your responses that you are not communicating with me. Typing is being done, words are being written, yet there is no clear communication going on between us.

However, one last thing the 1st Amendment does reconcile with these words:
Quote:
Madison's original proposal for a bill of rights provision concerning religion read: ''The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.' FindLaw: U.S. Constitution: First Amendment: Annotations pg. 1 of 21
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
~ John Adams ~

I'm done here. I have stated my argument, you've ignored and claim, not specific enough for you.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
9,056 posts, read 4,511,342 times
Reputation: 1434
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALS_2009 View Post
With respect to prayers at public school graduations, we must first realize that the free exercise is not absolute. None of the rights in the first amendment are absolute. Do we agree on that? Certainly, we all know that our free speech rights are not absolute. There are several notable exceptions based both on the content and concerning time, place, manner restrictions, for instance.

We don't have the absolute right to pray whenever, whereever we want. It would be absurd to think we do.

Can a public school student tell his teacher "hold on teach, i'm praying right now. let me get back to you when i'm done"? Clearly, no, this is unnaceptable. Maybe his parent, who doesn't know a thing about the first amendment, will file a lawsuit, but the outcome is clear - there was no constitutional violation by telling the student he cannot pray at that specific time.

That's just one example. I'll briefly address the problems that arise when an individual who happens to be a government employee (teacher, coach, principle, etc, of a public school) wants to pray around/with students on school grounds during school hours. Can the individual claim a violation of the first amendment when the school says you cannot pray in such manner? Well, technically yes, but as above, the claim is meritless. When he became a government employee, he surrendered some of this free exercise rights as they relate to this particular situation (with students, during school hours/during a school/sanctioned activity, etc).

If we allow government employees to assert free exercise claims in situations like these, the establishment clause is made useless.

Now, for public school students wishing to have large-scale praying exercises at graduations, this too is unlawful because it necessarily gives the impression of the school's endorsement. You cannot have potentially hundreds of people engaging in the performance of a religious exercise at events like these simply because the majority wishes it to happen. The first amendment is a shield for the minority, not a sword for the majority. The graduating class cannot simply vote away the constitutional rights of the minority students to be free from being coerced into participating in such exercises.

In addition, there is nothing stopping large amounts of students from praying with each other before or after the graduation ceremony, just as there is nothing stopping large groups of students praying with each other during lunch or at their lockers, or at other similar times of the day, despite the fact that it is on school grounds and during school hours.

Why do people think they are justified in praying whenever they want, whereever they want? I don't understand why they think they are either entitled, or why they feel like they must have this ability. These are minor restrictions on your 'free exercise' rights.

actonbell, are you of the opinion that the first amendment does not apply to the states, or just that the establishment clause should not be so broadly construed?
Thank you for clarifying question regarding previous post.

Did the four fathers write and later ratify a document that was not to be absolute in content? Lord, I hope not.

I equate the rights of prayer to the rights of free speech and journalism history. In the area of sensationalism, yellow journalism and propaganda, there were attempts throughout history to silence the presses, however, the 1st Amendment protected their right in the area of free speech. Bush, Obama and a president in our history (whose name I can not recall) have tried to silence the talk shows, (media) but have found, they can not do so, without risk to the protections afforded to all by the 1st Amendment.

The 1st Amendment is to protect, not prohibit our rights, yet in the cases of public prayer, in order to obtain a law (and amend) to prohibit prayer (which encompasses, free speech and free exercise) the United States Supreme Court (federal law, which also mandates state laws) stepped outside the boundaries of the constitution and incorporated a letter so as to prohibit no longer protect our rights afforded to us, by the Constitution.

I am of the opinion the 'establishment clause' has been grossly misconstrued since 1962. I stand with O'Donnell, "it's in there?"

In the case of a government employee, it is known to the person before taking that position, they are leaving behind their civil rights. They do this as part of a dedication to their job and to the country in which they will serve. So...it is understandable by all people that the 1st Amendment will not apply to the government employee.

Having a volunteer prayer held ceremony on a school campus is in by no way an establishment of a national (one only this is the one) religion. However, there is an establishment set and afforded by those who believe against those who have this freedom. (stop touching me. I say this because it reminds me of two children complaining to their parent, mom he's touching me again, make him stop.)
Quote:
In addition, there is nothing stopping large amounts of students from praying with each other before or after the graduation ceremony,
Yes, there is for grad ceremony and or sports events,
It is apparent to me, that because of the effects of these court rulings do not seemingly effect the general public, joe average, goes on through life unaware of the rights he looses each and every day legislature gets passed through congress and the supreme court system, by groups that joe average is not in touch with.

respecting an establishment vs separation of church and state

This side is not equal to the other side.

Quote:
These are minor restrictions on your 'free exercise' rights.
I doubt very seriously if the shoe was on the other foot, you'd still think so.

Maybe joe average should be made more aware of freedoms lost due to unconstitutional laws. If the U.S. Supreme court can rule against public expression through prayer, then by all rights and purposes, freedom of expression say, kissing in public, can also be prohibited. (I have to do case in point look up, but I know where the rights of prayer has indeed effected those who do not want the rights of prayer.)

Quote:
A Critical Examination of Deism
The Baptists in Danbury Connecticut feared persecution by Congregational Church if it became a national church. To quote the Danbury Baptists, That Religion is at all times and places a matter between God and individuals -- That no man ought to suffer in name, person, or effects on account of his religious Opinions. That would upset some fundamentalists.

Jefferson responded, Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God; that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship; that the legislative powers of the government reach actions only, and not opinions...the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State. By banning from public expression the beliefs of Christians and Jews, while pandering to every other belief systems including Islam in California public schools or environmental religion, is clearly a violation of the intention of the Constitution
^ That is establishment of a national religion.^
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Old 10-29-2010, 07:56 AM
 
40,246 posts, read 24,539,278 times
Reputation: 12736
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
actonbell wrote:
Do you mean to tell me that you have lived and learned, yet you do not know the Supreme Court banished public school prayer in 1962? And that in 1972, 10 years later the Lemon Tests were established? And that voluntary prayers, even those who wish to do so at graduation ceremonies have been prohibited (not protected) by the use of a letter used to interpret the 1st Amendment.

If you do not know that, then what the hell are we talking about? Also, in assuming that you are not aware of that case, then I suppose you have no knowledge of the cases that have been before the courts as subsequent in nature, to the 1962 case.

  • Engel v. Vitale. (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1066 - broken link)
  • Abington Township School District v. Schempp, (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?case=District_v_Schempp - broken link)
  • Wallace v. Jaffree (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1929 - broken link)
  • Lee v. Weisman (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1381 - broken link)
  • Santa Fe v. Doe, (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1699 - broken link)
  • Tinker v. Des Moines, (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/faclibrary/case.aspx?id=1860 - broken link)
firstamendmentcenter.org: Religious Liberty in Public Schools - topic (http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/rel_liberty/publicschools/topic.aspx?topic=school_prayer - broken link)

Not to mention the one that I did google as you read in my posts and still insist that I did not provide a specific case. I even provided for your entertainment a video, how did you miss it. (this is on you)

No people do not have to stand there along side me if I am praying within their presence. There is a door way leading to the outside....but instead of using it, they will stand there and say, stop touching me with your prayer.

DC Ridge, I can tell, by your responses that you are not communicating with me. Typing is being done, words are being written, yet there is no clear communication going on between us.

However, one last thing the 1st Amendment does reconcile with these words:
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people.

It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
~ John Adams ~

I'm done here. I have stated my argument, you've ignored and claim, not specific enough for you.
Public school prayer HAS NOT BEEN BANISHED. That's why you can't find ANY laws saying so. Schools/teachers/authorities aren't allowed to LEAD children in prayer. But children can pray anytime and anywhere as long as it doesn't disrupt classrooms or school functions.
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Old 10-29-2010, 08:34 AM
 
37,762 posts, read 16,357,637 times
Reputation: 8566
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALS_2009 View Post
With respect to prayers at public school graduations, we must first realize that the free exercise is not absolute. None of the rights in the first amendment are absolute. Do we agree on that? Certainly, we all know that our free speech rights are not absolute. There are several notable exceptions based both on the content and concerning time, place, manner restrictions, for instance.

We don't have the absolute right to pray whenever, whereever we want. It would be absurd to think we do.

Can a public school student tell his teacher "hold on teach, i'm praying right now. let me get back to you when i'm done"? Clearly, no, this is unnaceptable. Maybe his parent, who doesn't know a thing about the first amendment, will file a lawsuit, but the outcome is clear - there was no constitutional violation by telling the student he cannot pray at that specific time.

That's just one example. I'll briefly address the problems that arise when an individual who happens to be a government employee (teacher, coach, principle, etc, of a public school) wants to pray around/with students on school grounds during school hours. Can the individual claim a violation of the first amendment when the school says you cannot pray in such manner? Well, technically yes, but as above, the claim is meritless. When he became a government employee, he surrendered some of this free exercise rights as they relate to this particular situation (with students, during school hours/during a school/sanctioned activity, etc).

If we allow government employees to assert free exercise claims in situations like these, the establishment clause is made useless.

Now, for public school students wishing to have large-scale praying exercises at graduations, this too is unlawful because it necessarily gives the impression of the school's endorsement. You cannot have potentially hundreds of people engaging in the performance of a religious exercise at events like these simply because the majority wishes it to happen. The first amendment is a shield for the minority, not a sword for the majority. The graduating class cannot simply vote away the constitutional rights of the minority students to be free from being coerced into participating in such exercises.

In addition, there is nothing stopping large amounts of students from praying with each other before or after the graduation ceremony, just as there is nothing stopping large groups of students praying with each other during lunch or at their lockers, or at other similar times of the day, despite the fact that it is on school grounds and during school hours.

Why do people think they are justified in praying whenever they want, whereever they want? I don't understand why they think they are either entitled, or why they feel like they must have this ability. These are minor restrictions on your 'free exercise' rights.

actonbell, are you of the opinion that the first amendment does not apply to the states, or just that the establishment clause should not be so broadly construed?
I dis-agree with you. I guess you didn't look at the video I posted. Thomas Jefferson, who I believe had a little part in the writing of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution endorsed and participated in religious services IN A PUBLIC BUILDING, the Capitol.

I think he knew what the documents mentioned.

You cannot form you own interpretation and ignore what the founding Fathers meant when they wrote what they did and their actions after the constitution was passed.
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