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Old 10-29-2010, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,800 posts, read 102,087,947 times
Reputation: 32912

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Let's put this to rest.
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.
Prayer In Public School (Precedents)
That plus, there's the old joke: "As long as kids have tests, there will be prayer in the schools". There is no reason a kid can't pray silently.
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Old 10-29-2010, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,474 posts, read 4,368,137 times
Reputation: 1366
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Let's put this to rest.
Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate." Tinker v. Des Moines Indep. Community Sch. Dist., 393 U.S. 503, 506 (1969). In addition, the Supreme Court has made clear that "private religious speech, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression." Capitol Square Review & Advisory Bd. v. Pinette, 515 U.S. 753, 760 (1995). Moreover, not all religious speech that takes place in the public schools or at school-sponsored events is governmental speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 302. For example, "nothing in the Constitution ... prohibits any public school student from voluntarily praying at any time before, during, or after the school day," and students may pray with fellow students during the school day on the same terms and conditions that they may engage in other conversation or speech. Santa Fe, 530 U.S. at 313.
Prayer In Public School (Precedents)
Send that to the ACLU and tell them to put it to rest.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:09 PM
 
16,553 posts, read 11,436,539 times
Reputation: 4230
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
Here is a good time line of events, court cases and such:
February 7, 1999


From what I understand now, is that the state laws are enabling their rules in regard to religious functions in their schools.

Just in case you missed it. ALS_2009 did know and the analogy is a fact.
That poster was clearly wrong and the anoalogy was way out in left field.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:13 PM
 
16,553 posts, read 11,436,539 times
Reputation: 4230
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
Here is a link to God In America: God in the White House | PBS more of what you just said.
First of all anything like this from PBS is suspect. PBS is run by the government. Remember that. Secondly I have no idea what you were trying to imply with that link.
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Old 10-29-2010, 02:47 PM
 
39,939 posts, read 24,181,628 times
Reputation: 12537
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
Yes it was and No they can not. Further more you are ignoring the court cases I post within my posts. Not to mention the granddaddy of all U.S. Supreme Court hearings and decisions that banished prayer from the schools. Can I have some of what you are smoking?
Since that decision if a student or a group of students are so much as seen conducting a group prayer, some one will come along, not just report them, but bring suit against them. That decision has become a platform for all non-believers in which to stand.
Here is a fantastic presentation: God In America - Inside the tumultuous 400-year history of the intersection of religion and public life in America | PBS

And time line: God In America: Timeline - Faith in America | PBS If you click on 1962 and move the time line forward, the succession of things can be read in the dates.

Basically when prayer was ruled illegal conduct in school, that brought about a lack of discipline for the students and a weakened platform for parents and teachers to maintain proper respect for all concerned. The result is, that now we have law enforcement officers policing our school grounds.
There is no point in discussing this further. You are completely WRONG. Prayer has not been banished from school. Any student is free to pray whenever they wish as long as they are not disrupting class or other school activities. You don't believe this. YOU ARE WRONG. But I cannot persuade you otherwise. You are clearly vested in your fantasy.
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Old 10-29-2010, 03:05 PM
 
25 posts, read 31,497 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD View Post
You are so wrong, but go on and beat your chest like you know what you are talking about. You CAN pray ANYWHERE your heart desires. Your analogy about being in class and telling the teacher to wait is absolutely absurd. There are rules to follow in school and being able to say a prayer does not exempt you from those rules.


First, I was not beating my chest when I wrote my post, either literally or figuaretively. Second, you seem to have contradicted yourself here. Correct me if i'm wrong, but it appears you say on the one hand that we can pray anywhere we desire, yet tell us that it is reasonable for a school to prohibit students from praying in certain circumstances?


You have made the conclusory statement that i'm 'clearly wrong' twice without giving us reasons why i'm wrong, which makes your point of view quite frankly, irrelevant.
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Old 10-29-2010, 03:17 PM
 
25 posts, read 31,497 times
Reputation: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD View Post
That poster was clearly wrong and the anoalogy was way out in left field.

Why was my analogy way out in left field? I used that analogy to illustrate the quite clear fact that we cannot pray whenever or whereever we choose, without restrictions. There are restrictions, pretty universally accepted, within the first amendment in general. This is one restriction with respect to the free exercise clause.


And i'll briefly address school graduation prayers here. I believe it was actonbell who cited to the Sante Fe opinion and the Doe v. DIDS case a few posts back. I briefly read through the latter (already was familiar with Santa Fe) and it appears that the coach was actively participating in the prayers during school-sanctioned events (basketball games). This is entirely different from prayers at graduation ceremonies.

At these ceremonies, potentially hundreds are in attendance. A prayer, even led by a student, results in a large captive audience during a religious exercise. This should not happen. Those who do not believe in god must not, in essence, be forced to sit through any religious exercise simply because "most people here are Christian so it's ok" (paraphrasing a common argument).

Again, these same students are not prohibited at all from praying, even in large numbers, before or after the ceremony. This is constitutional. It is ridiculous, frankly, to argue that this is not true.

The difference, as I noted above, is when the prayer is held before large captive audiences who did not voluntarily choose to find themselves in the middle of a religious exercise.

Again, your right to pray is not absolute, and the restrictions I have discussed are so inconsequential that to argue that your free exercise is being trumped here is absurd.

The final point is this: no one can possibly have the absolute right to exercise their first amendment rights whenever they want, as this frequently would interfere with the rights of others. Thus, compromises will have to be made. There is no other solution. Everyone cannot claim the absolute right at the same time. This is impossible.
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Michigan
12,715 posts, read 11,546,599 times
Reputation: 4130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fawkes View Post
There is nothing in the Constitution that says anything about the separation of church and state, O'Donell was correct, and there was never any mention of the phrase until, what 1947
Did you mean 1802?
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:25 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,474 posts, read 4,368,137 times
Reputation: 1366
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
There is no point in discussing this further. You are completely WRONG. Prayer has not been banished from school. Any student is free to pray whenever they wish as long as they are not disrupting class or other school activities. You don't believe this. YOU ARE WRONG. But I cannot persuade you otherwise. You are clearly vested in your fantasy.
Like wise I'm sure.
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:37 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,474 posts, read 4,368,137 times
Reputation: 1366
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD View Post
First of all anything like this from PBS is suspect. PBS is run by the government. Remember that. Secondly I have no idea what you were trying to imply with that link.
Maybe it works better if the posts are in a series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
He did participate in those services. Services that were non-compulsory, and which also rotated out various ministers so that no one church was represented over other churches. Very carefully avoiding the endorsement or establishment of any particular faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD What you just said here is COMPLETE BULLSH*T!
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell Here is a link to God In America: God in the White House | PBS more of what you just said.
I thought to myself, here are all of them that have avoided endorsement or establishment of faith. I guess I best not quit my day job, because I would never make it as a stand up comic.
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