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Old 10-21-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,204 posts, read 19,220,987 times
Reputation: 8443

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
You folks obviously have no clue about the history of why this nation was even founded or else you wouldn't be questioning why they thought it best if your rights were indisputable. If your rights truly come from someone else then they're up for grabs.

You can come get your rights card from me tomorrow but I don't think you deserve the pursuit of happiness part. Bring $30.00 too.
That is what I meant in #220.
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:08 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,356,310 times
Reputation: 4031
Quote:
Originally Posted by jambo101 View Post
Are you suggesting this some one is God?
Read the document. It's a scathing review of what government had done to its people. The founders were also pretty smart when it came to history so they knew, as they stated:
Quote:
Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
So why would intelligent men, who are about to start one of the greatest countries in the history of the world, turn right around and start that country based on the same tired rules and regulations endowed to them by some other person who is considered "created equal"?
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:11 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,356,310 times
Reputation: 4031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Maybe the illusion that gods had something to do with it is important for some people in order to consider certain things special and inalienable. When one regards rights etc. as something merely granted by fellow humans (which they are, of course), they can be challenged and revoked more easily.
Basically, except they aren't granted to you by someone else, at least not in this nation. There are some nations though that make it clear some intellectual in a far off place controls your life and what you can and will be able to do in regards to your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:19 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,204 posts, read 19,220,987 times
Reputation: 8443
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
Basically, except they aren't granted to you by someone else, at least not in this nation. There are some nations though that make it clear some intellectual in a far off place controls your life and what you can and will be able to do in regards to your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Since I am an atheist it is quite clear to me that in your country, too, those rights etc. were granted to the people by humans. It was humans who developed the concept of inalienable rights granted by gods.
In a weird way it is similar to the trick used in the Koran. It was written by a human who claimed to write on behalf of god so as to add a new dimension of weight to his rules and views. No idea whether or not he really believed in god himself, though...
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:27 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,356,310 times
Reputation: 4031
Again, you're missing the whole point. If there was no government around and you were the sole person on earth. You are predisposed to having life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. If you want to jump off a cliff, lock yourself in a cage or find the most depressing thing around so as to drown out any happiness you may happen to come along, that's your choice. Now when you add humans you're subject to someone wanting to take those rights away. If you allow them, by say living in a country that allows that, then that just sucks for you. In this country it was set up differently. You have those rights and if they're infringed upon then you've either been killed, you're enslaved or you're taxed (regulated -- whatever) to death and no matter how hard you work, or whatever your pursuit of happiness is, you've lost that ability.
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Old 10-21-2010, 05:36 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,204 posts, read 19,220,987 times
Reputation: 8443
I think that assuming humans [should] have those freedoms is a healthy illusion. Humans are very social beings. And since at the same time we are very different from each other and highly individualistic, our interests often collide, which in the wild would lead to the stronger/more intelligent individuals forcing their views on the weaker/less intelligent ones. To prevent that we have invented unnatural laws and constitutions that significantly reduce that kind of oppression. It's not perfect, though.
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 14,281,013 times
Reputation: 6904
Quote:
Originally Posted by brien51 View Post
No one forces anyone to believe the DOI. Take it, or leave it, but this country was foudned upon its principles and if someone doesn't like it, well too bad. It is what it is and if someone doesn't believe what is written in there, then tough.

The FF wrote the document and wrote what they meant; and they meant that rights come from the "creator". Don't like it. So what. Then go figure where your rights come but in the US, they come from the creator. It is written in plain English DIRECTLY in the DOI.
Right! If the majority of Americans believe in god, then the entire country shall be governed as the believers desire. Because believers know what god wants. And to those who don't like it; so what! (They'll be sent to hell anyway)
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:36 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,356,310 times
Reputation: 4031
Replace creator with Cats Eye Nebula. It would have the effect. Except maybe one day in a distant time period from now it could take away those right or put them up for negotiation.
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:37 PM
 
27,903 posts, read 34,356,310 times
Reputation: 4031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
Right! If the majority of Americans believe in god, then the entire country shall be governed as the believers desire. Because believers know what god wants. And to those who don't like it; so what! (They'll be sent to hell anyway)
Do you live in America?
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Old 10-21-2010, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Way,Way Up On The Old East Coast
2,193 posts, read 1,728,497 times
Reputation: 1081
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD View Post
SourD !!! ... You Are Well Within The Mark !

How absolutely pitiful it truly is that America has arrived at a point in her glorious history when it's President proudly refuses to acknowledge or even mention "Creator" in reference to remarks pretaining directly to the Declaration of Independence !!!

This my friends is a prime example of the dopey consequences of acquring the incredibly clueless PC version of U.S. History !

What on "God's Green Earth" did the American people ever do to deserve such a pitiful mess as this .... in of all places the WH ???

May the Saint's Preserve us all ! ARRRRRRRRGH !!!
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