Can the United States Empire Fall?

[GregW]

Without American military spending and the American debt, what would the world's financiers do for money? If we stopped importing oil with borrowed money what would the exporting nations do for cash?

I believe it is time to let the world provide its own protection and for us to become petroleum independent. It is time for the world's bankers to find someone else to rip off.

[GTOlover]

Originally Posted by GregW

Without American military spending and the American debt, what would the world's financiers do for money? If we stopped importing oil with borrowed money what would the exporting nations do for cash?

I believe it is time to let the world provide its own protection and for us to become petroleum independent. It is time for the world's bankers to find someone else to rip off.

sell it to china or russia who will buy it up as fast as they can get it

[TnHilltopper]

Originally Posted by Kings Ranger

We have a vast expanse of land-- if you want to count that as an Empire, we do have a huge world economy we rely on, allies, etc and you might count that as an empire... not an "empire" as the dictionary might say, because the world changes and we don't have empires like that anymore

I think we can mix up terms, as being a large and wealthy nation isn't what makes us an empire. The ability to project power, influence and control through various means such as economics, politics or militarism on a broad scale, other nations and states to produce outcomes favorable to our own national interest, even at the expense of their own.

Think of a poker player at the table who has vastly more chips than all the others. The size and breadth of the players economic standing allows a certain aspect of control over the game and its players by using this disparity in chips. Weaker players are forced to be more cautious, as they might only have one hands worth of chips, thus covet them like grim death, whereas the player with a massive stack needn't worry about having someone put their back to the wall.

I do agree that because society and politics, and especially geopolitics become more complex over time that definitions will need to be changed, or added to, in order to describe new things and new situations.

America being an empire isn't necessarily a good thing or bad thing, we don't necessarily wake up in the morning each day and say... ~yawn~ <stretch> who shall we dominate or take over today. America has certain needs and requirements, its people demand from its government cheap energy/oil, cheap goods, and wealth. The government does what it can to give its people these things, even if it requires us to use our largess of power and wealth to subvert the interest of those players with a small stack of chips.

[TnHilltopper]

Originally Posted by GregW

Without American military spending and the American debt, what would the world's financiers do for money? If we stopped importing oil with borrowed money what would the exporting nations do for cash?

I believe it is time to let the world provide its own protection and for us to become petroleum independent. It is time for the world's bankers to find someone else to rip off.

Consider the luck or chance involved in combining with successful American expansion in the past.

Take WWII for instance. After the war, Europe and much of Asia was devastated and its manufacturing based severely crippled. This left the United States in an interesting position of being not only geographically isolated and distanced, but also the sole remaining manufacturing power left. America was then in a position to dominate the global manufacturing sector as well as more easily able to gain footholds of influence in parts of the world that were once influenced, governed or controlled by those power which were now reeling.

Even today in Europe there seems to be this recall of the devastation and horror wrought by WWII and thus a reluctance to engage militarily or attempt its once age old practice of colonialization in places like the Philippines, Indo-china or Central/South America as it once did. Those countries that suffered the hardest turned inward and focused instead on economics with a reluctance in interventionism. I mean Norway isn't exactly threatening to use its military to enforce a spreading of socialism in Iraq, but they are doing quite well economically.

On the other hand, the United States which had spent several generations in the mindset of Manifest Destiny, and the constant need for expansion saw its success after WWII as a reinforcement of these views. As Presidents have since said, "The American way of life is not to be compromised", but the American way of life was being predicated upon "bigger, better, more" and there is only so much you can expand, so much you can grow. We instead reinforced the "Shiny city on the hill" as have come to believe this with religious reverence.

The era of gross consumption has come to an end, and folks are going to be forced to live more within their means and the freely offered credit to live a lifestyle beyond ones current economic means is fast drying up. On the bright side, this will likely force us to sit down and talk more than taking a unilateral approach to everything in our foreign policy which serves the domestic demand.

[Kings Ranger]

Originally Posted by GregW

Without American military spending and the American debt, what would the world's financiers do for money? If we stopped importing oil with borrowed money what would the exporting nations do for cash?

I believe it is time to let the world provide its own protection and for us to become petroleum independent. It is time for the world's bankers to find someone else to rip off.

I wonder what is going to happen when the USA falls from #1...
Of course, our military is maintained, and as long as we keep the military up, our "empire" will last-- because who wants to attack someone who can put up a strong fight?

I think the world will really feel the US go under...
Europe's countries have almost invisible defense budgets, because we protect them...

We buy things from China, and once we stop buying their goods, what will happen? Their government won't allow massive spending by the common people who are doing the work cheaper than anyone else in the world...

and the UN? as nations want to get into the #1 spot, and pick up the pieces it can from the US there might be fighting

our bases-- if the US loses a war, and it's government surrenders, what will a base in, say Germany do, if China took over?

The US is one of the few countries that can produce enough food to feed its entire population--and then some
What will China do without our agriculture and farms?

The thing I like most about the USA, aside from the great life I get to grow up in, a day-care, with a laptop, where I can learn all day, and the freedom to do a lot of stuff that people in other countries can't, is that the USA is an idea.

If the United States Government falls, sure, thats the end of the USA, and I doubt the People give up without a fight and whatever country attempts to take over/occupy our country will be in for a helluva fight--so it seems.

But the main thing about America falling, is that America is an idea. The United States, is an idea. The idea of the people having control of the government, freedom to do almost anything, and the ability to fix problems as we move ahead.

I think the United States will have a lasting effect on the world, sort of like Greece and Rome have had on us today, because of the idea of everyone working together to make this country what it is today.

But my (side) question is why are we letting corporations control EVERYTHING? Necessities like water don't need to be owned by large companies, food isn't owned by them, farmers have the freedom to sell to who they wish, most of the time, but water... that might be a problem

And who thought people needed to be able to spend more money than they had?! Credit cards? c'mon!