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I like unbridled capitalism. When governments meddle in the markets then we no longer have a free market. Many problems have been CAUSED by government regulation which is ironic because if you listen to people who think capitalism is the root of all evil, then government regulators are supposed to be our saviors!! It's a joke. You either believe in the principles that our founding fathers established or you don't!! I'm tired of hearing Marxists espouse how bad capitalism is. There are plenty of places on the globe you can move to right now where they don't believe in or practice capitalism. If that's what you think is so great then what is stopping you?? Why are you capitalism haters all still here???
"Dane_in_LA" go ahead and list for me all the places on planet earth where Keynesian economics have worked?? I'm waiting with baited breath for you to enlighten me. Maybe you could just name one place??? I'd like to know what economies were built on Keynesian economics and what economies are thriving right now because their spending exceeded their revenues. What economies were failing and then were "kick started" by deficit spending. Go ahead and tell me what economy which already had a heavy debt burden then improved by adding more debt(you know the tool you identified).
Really? Because it's been tried, you know. Look at the UK at the height of the Industrial Revolution. 12-hour days, child labor, horribly unsafe working conditions, revolting living conditions for the working classes, the works. This was what enraged Marx so, and there was no lack of material for him to work with. That situation wasn't corrected by the invisible hand of the market or by tax cuts for the mill owners, but by hard-fought legislation, organized labor and, in some countries, the threat of real, deep-red socialism. (No less an authoritarian figure than Bismarck introduced worker protection laws for the express purpose of keeping the ghost of socialist revolts at bay.)
You can have a close look at India or Bangladesh's industrial areas if you want an idea of current unbridled capitalism. It kinda sucks.
Really? Because it's been tried, you know. Look at the UK at the height of the Industrial Revolution. 12-hour days, child labor, horribly unsafe working conditions, revolting living conditions for the working classes, the works. This was what enraged Marx so, and there was no lack of material for him to work with. That situation wasn't corrected by the invisible hand of the market or by tax cuts for the mill owners, but by hard-fought legislation, organized labor and, in some countries, the threat of real, deep-red socialism. (No less an authoritarian figure than Bismarck introduced worker protection laws for the express purpose of keeping the ghost of socialist revolts at bay.)
You can have a close look at India or Bangladesh's industrial areas if you want an idea of current unbridled capitalism. It kinda sucks.
Dane I sure hope you are posting from a Communist country, since you love Marx so much! What part of the world do you live in Dane??
I'm still waiting for you name the economy where Keynesian economics was implemented and that economy is thriving?? You can't name ONE can you Dane? That economy doesn't exist on planet earth! Kenesian economics has been tried and it has FAILED! Oh and by the way, Communism has been tried around the globe too! You know all those "cool" ideas you like from Marx so much?? Mao was a "cool" guy too wasn't he? When starved all those millions of people and hurt the economy?? That was great wasn't it Dane because capitalism is the "root of all evil" to you right??
Dane I sure hope you are posting from a Communist country, since you love Marx so much!
His analysis was spot-on. His solutions were, at best, criminally naive. His followers were criminal. What's this "love" thing? The man had insights. If anyone told you that he was the devil incarnate and thus every part of his work is worthless, they did you no favors.
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What part of the world do you live in Dane??
Not sure it means anything to the debate, but I'm on my third country - Denmark, Germany, now the US.
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I'm still waiting for you name the economy where Keynesian economics was implemented and that economy is thriving?
Keynes et al. didn't come up with a 12-step program for fixing an economy, because the mechanisms are way too complex and there are way too many external factors. Keynesian economics provides tools that can be used in times of crisis, perhaps to keep a recession from turning into a depression.
You want an example of a successful application of Keynesian economics? A situation where a burst of government deficit-spending turned a malingering economy around? Sure. Let's have a look at World War II, eh?
A nation-wide, government-controlled, deficit-based program that burned money on an unprecedented scale. (Building ships that then get sunk doesn't have much of an ROI.) Hell, the US government had to issue war bonds, not so much to finance the war, but to keep inflation in check. Incidentally, ended the Great Depression.
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Oh and by the way, Communism has been tried around the globe too! You know all those "cool" ideas you like from Marx so much?? Mao was a "cool" guy too wasn't he? When starved all those millions of people and hurt the economy?? That was great wasn't it Dane because capitalism is the "root of all evil" to you right??
I have no idea whose posts you're reading, but please have the common courtesy to not use quotation marks when you are not, in fact, quoting me. As can be seen by my posts, I do not subscribe to the viewpoints you seem eager to ascribe to me. I enjoy a spirited debate, but a bit of civility, please?
[Heretic Flag On]
You should be aware that any academic / credentialed economist is a blithering idiot. (No insult intended toward idiots)
No one can become a credentialed economist without the ability to ignore the "naked Emperor" (as in the "Emperor's New Clothes"). Any student who perceives reality will be summarily ejected from the program, cast into utter darkness, and stricken from the rolls of useful serfs.
To illustrate:
The "Science" of Economics uses a variable (paper money) as its unit of measure.
Usury, the fee for the loan of money, is mathematically impossible to pay in a finite money token system. (It's been denounced for 3500 years - no secret there!) Usury is the reason why "Booms" and "Busts" occur.
By law, dollars are coin (gold or silver) and dollar bills are notes - promises to pay coin - in the future. That promise was repudiated in 1933, thus all "dollar bills" have no par value (worthless). [See Title 12 USC Sec. 411]
The national debt, denominated in dollars, cannot be paid off with dollar bills (debt). Debt cannot pay debt. Minus value plus a minus value is more minus.
By law, the debt computes to a sum of 650 billion ounces of gold, stamped into coin. Though Congress does have the power to borrow money (coin), the world wide known supply is only 5.3 billion ounces, so we can be sure that Congress was never lent that sum.
By law, the public debt cannot be questioned, pursuant to 14th amendment, section 4.
Now, if you think that's bizarre, consider that most Americans have lived their whole lives under "emergency" rules.
For 40 years [the report spans 1933-1973], freedoms and governmental procedures guaranteed by the Constitution have, in varying degrees, been abridged by laws brought into force by states of national emergency.
And this insanity continues by your consent...
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[2] Even lawyers know that usury is unsustainable!
In 1836 John Whipple, an American lawyer, showed the impossibility of sustaining long term metallic usury:
" If 5 English pennies... had been... at 5 per cent compound interest from the beginning of the Christian era until the present time, it would amount in gold of standard fineness to 32,366,648,157 spheres of gold each eight thousand miles in diameter, or as large as the earth."
In other words, usury creates an aggregate debt (principle and interest) that exceeds the sum of available money tokens, hence triggering defaults and confiscations of pledged collateral. (Boom and Bust)
BTW - usury is condemned as a scheme to rob and steal. Whenever governments tolerate it, it soon takes over the government - like in the USA.
Sigh of unbelief...
Here you all are, arguing over economists and their theories when the underlying factors are ignored.
[] In America, there has been NO money, as defined by law, since 1933.
[] There has been a continuous state of emergency, since 1933.
[] Americans have been tricked into surrendering their property rights, since 1935 (via FICA)
[] Congress has no power to create money, nor delegate said power to a third party (i.e., Federal Reserve)
[] A Federal Reserve note, pursuant to law, is an IOU. Since 1933, it has been a worthless IOU to American holders of FRNs, and since 1970s, for foreign holders of said notes.
[] The public debt, denominated in dollars, cannot be paid with "dollar bills".
When will you stop arguing over nonsense, and realize that the biggest heist in history has been going on since 1933?
And when the creditor tries to foreclose, whose property is at risk?
Dane I'm glad you enjoy a spirited debate. It's a shame you don't have more to bring to the table. I think it's safe to say that you don't like spending on the militiary??? You have referenced spending on militiary equipment at least twice and both times it's with disdain(ahem! disdain, not dis-Dane!!)...
You also have stated that you are not a fan of unbridled capitalism! I got these impressions, from your words! What do you support Dane if you don't like capitalism and you don't believe in spending money on the military?? The natural conclusion is that you are supporter of marxism and/or communism.
Oh and you believe Marx's analysis of economics was "spot on"! So I know it probably seems like a HUGE leap of logic for one to think that you are a Marxists supporter. So go ahead Dane....reveal your true self!! What is it exactly that you support and stand for??
Dane I'm glad you enjoy a spirited debate. It's a shame you don't have more to bring to the table. I think it's safe to say that you don't like spending on the militiary??? You have referenced spending on militiary equipment at least twice and both times it's with disdain(ahem! disdain, not dis-Dane!!)...
You also have stated that you are not a fan of unbridled capitalism! I got these impressions, from your words! What do you support Dane if you don't like capitalism and you don't believe in spending money on the military?? The natural conclusion is that you are supporter of marxism and/or communism.
Oh and you believe Marx's analysis of economics was "spot on"! So I know it probably seems like a HUGE leap of logic for one to think that you are a Marxists supporter. So go ahead Dane....reveal your true self!! What is it exactly that you support and stand for??
This is not about me, and as fascinating as I find the subject, I am not going to elaborate on my personal opinions in great detail, you'll just have to read my posts - preferably, what's actually in them.
I the meantime, are you going to counter the example of WWII as an example of Keynesian response to a crisis? What, in your opinion, disqualifies it as an example?
I'll even point out the major weaknesses in Keyne's philosophy as it's applied - that it's easy for politicians to get approval to open the public coffers in bad times, but nobody wants to be the guy to tighten the belt when things go well.
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