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Nirvana-Guy,
Just listen to the news we are pulling out, it's all down to the military, the guys on the ground. First we will stop aggressive roles and just teach the Iraqi's how to police themselves, soon as the military consider they can look after themselves we leave.
Bush and Brown will have little option but to follow this course and like it or lump it they will have to engage politically with all of Iraq's neighbours and that includes Iran.
Oh I know the US and the UK are not immediatelly pulling out, but the US Congress is up for re-election in 2008 and we have a presidential race in 2008. I seriously doubt unless we have some massive progress in Iraq that the US will be able to stay. The now-radicalized Democratic party is under pressure from a "monster" the Dems created themselves: a far-left constituency that wants a full pullout no matter what.
Cindy Shehan is attacking Communist Nancy Pelosi (D-CA).... that goes to show haw radicalized the left is in America today. There are these hyrterical liberal individuals who want a full pullout of Iraq and they are calling the shots among Democrats. It is so bad that Hillary had to stop pretending to be a moderate and swing far left to stay on top of the polls in her party.
So basically, the Democrats want a Vietnam-style full "run faster, the enemy will be here in 5 mins" type withdrawl where milliosn will die and a full-blown regional war will erupt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sun queen
I think that is a very good question. I think initially Americans will be pleased and releaved to have our troops home, but it is not clear what all the ramifications will be. I think to properly explore this question u also have to ask what will happen if the US does not pull the troops out?
There will be sereve ramifications when the pullout occur. Trust me on this one, I have been reading voth leftwing and rightwing expert opinions in the matter and there is a consensus it will be a major bloodbath.
My #1 concern is Iran... they are without any doubt developing Nukes, they are open about it, they are funding, training, and arming the Iraqi terrorists and the US is sitting idly by.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkeye48
It doesn't matter when we pull out. They are in a civil war now, and when we leave, whether it's next year or in fifty years, a full blown war will erupt. The only question is how many US troops will our government let die before we finally do pull out?
Well, I think the "civil war" could have been avoided if Iran was not helping fuel it. But guess what? The US government cannot seal the Us-Mexico border and certainly they are too incompetent to seal the Iran-Iraq border.
Yes, it is messy now, but undoubtely, the surge is showing results. I want to see what September will bring... I am hopeful, but I am also realistic that if the surge doesn't bring major results in Sept, the US will have to begin a pullout and we will sit back and watch chaos engulf that area of the world.
I am just upset that liberals (led by a moronic Senator, Bill Nelson \ D-FL) keep blocking drilling in Alaska for oil. Once the Middle East is engulfed in war, oil prices will quadruple and Americans will pay the price for electing idiots like Bill Nelson.
America Destroys Their Infrastructure, Electricity, Water – And Then Blames Them For Not Getting Their Act Together? What Would Happen If We Left Iraq, Like... They Need Us? No, The Iraqis Would Work Things Out, Like They Have For Centuries, If We Stay The Hell Out Of The Country We Invaded. Get Out Of Their Country, Now!!!
No More Blood On America's Hands!!!!!!!!!!
Please tell us what you think will happen when America finally pulls its troops out of Iraq.
That will depend on when (and if) it actually happens and under what circumstances. I don't see the troops coming home soon, for several reasons:
1. The Bush Administration has no discernable exit strategy;
2. The Administration wants to keep as many troops in the region as it can in the event it decides to invade Iran;
3. The Administration knows that the Iraqi people won't really support any government that they perceive as a lacky of the United States. It knows that any regime that has cooperated with the occupation authorities will not last long once U.S. forces leave.
4. There appears to be a naive belief among the neocons that a regime can eventually be established in Iraq that will embrace liberal, pluralistic policies at home while reliably supporting U.S. foreign policy objectives in the region. This is completely unrealistic, but it's one of the things that's keeping our soldiers over there.
If were we to pull the troops out now--which we won't--I imagine there would be an escalation of the civil war, which would last for another year or two. Iraq would then return to a stability unknown since the days of Saddam, most likely under an Islamic Republic not unfriendly to Iran. The new regime would be established with covert Iranian support, and although it would not be universally supported, it would certainly be more popular than Iraq's present government.
America Destroys Their Infrastructure, Electricity, Water – And Then Blames Them For Not Getting Their Act Together? What Would Happen If We Left Iraq, Like... They Need Us? No, The Iraqis Would Work Things Out, Like They Have For Centuries, If We Stay The Hell Out Of The Country We Invaded. Get Out Of Their Country, Now!!!
No More Blood On America's Hands!!!!!!!!!!
Did you "care" when Saddam Hussein was putting bullets into babies' brains, along with their mothers, and burying children alive in mass graves?
America did not "destroy" sewer lines, electricity, and water treatment plants. Have some common sense and intellectual honesty for crying out loud!
The infrastructure degraded under Saddam Hussein because he chose to neglect his own people and spend millions of dollars on himself and his sons for many many YEARS.
It's disgusting that Saddam Hussein chose to spend millions of dollars on building new Palaces throughout the 1990s rather than update Iraq's Infrastructure like Water Plants, Power Lines, Sewer lines, etc.
The USAID has facts on this subject.
The state of Iraq's Infrastructure BEFORE the 2003 invasion of Iraq:
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In 2003, Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities were operating at about 35 percent of their design capacity (3 billion liters a day) due to inadequate maintenance, lack of plant operators, power shortages, and looting.
USAID is helping improve the efficiency and reliability of existing treatment facilities, and is constructing several new facilities, especially in the south where water quality is particularly poor.
Iraq has 13 major wastewater treatment facilities, operating at about a quarter of their design capacity.
Baghdad's three sewage plants, comprising three quarters of the nation's total sewage treatment capacity, were not treating waste for more than six years before the conflict, allowing raw waste to flow into the Tigris River.
In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and trained staff exacerbated the situation.
USAID: Assistance for Iraq - Water and Sanitation (http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/watsan.html - broken link)
USAID Telling Our Story: Iraq - New Water Plant Improves Health in Iraq (http://www.usaid.gov/stories/iraq/fp_iraq_water.html - broken link)
Quote:
“We never had water – for 15 years people came here to use the dirty river water, hauling it away in buckets.
We hooked up some of the old pipes and it takes a few minutes to rinse out the sand and debrisâ€
- Kareem Noori, head of the Water Department for the Southeastern Iraqi city of Al-Amarah
Here are USAID accomplishments so far for the Iraqi people:
Quote:
ACCOMPLISHMENTS
Nationwide:
Restored or provided new water treatment to over 2.3 million Iraqis and sewage treatment to over 5.1 million.
Baghdad:
Expanded Sharq Dijlah water plant by 50 MGD and rehabilitated three sewage plants, which serve 80 percent of Baghdad's population, thus eliminating dumping raw sewage into the Tigris.
Kerkh wastewater treatment plant (WTP) began operating on May 19, 2004, the first major Iraqi plant to operate at full capacity in more than 12 years.
Standby generators have been procured and installed at 27 Baghdad water facilities, ensuring continued supply of treated water in the event of power outages.
Refurbished existing sewage lines and pump stations serving the Kadhamiya area of western Baghdad.
South:
Rehabilitated the Sweet Water Canal system: repairing breaches, cleaning and repairing the main water storage and settling reservoir and refurbishing 14 water treatment plants around Basrah city.
Treated water production increased by over 100 percent, serving over 1.1 million additional people.
South Central:
Rehabilitated two water plants and four sewage plants.
Najaf, Diwaniyah, Hillah, and Karbala sewage plants serve nearly 1 million people.
Water treatment plants in Najaf and Karbala serve more than 375,000residents and pilgrims near one of Iraq's holiest shrines.
North:
Provided major equipment for Mosul Water and Sewer Directorates. Refurbished the Kirkuk WTP.
Why do you people not take the time to educate yourselves and want to blame American for everyone's problems?
Saddam Hussein chose to spend millions of dollars on PALACES for himself and his sons, while letting Iraqi's infrastructure deteriorate.
Where was your outrage in 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002 over Iraq's degrading Infrastructure, while Saddam spent it all on himself for gold plated toilets in his Palaces?
Did you know Saddam Hussein loved man-made LAKES, man-made waterfalls, pools, and used pumping systems, pumps, generators, water lines, and many parts needed up to upgrade Iraq's water treatment plants, water lines, and sewer lines on his palace's man-made lakes and man-made waterfalls????????!!!!!!!!!!
Saddam’s palaces triple in 10 years
Satellite imagery gives inspectors plenty to look at
By Robert Windrem
NBC News producer
Updated: 9:39 a.m. CT Oct 24, 2003
NEW YORK, Jan. 24 - They are the gold-plated living memorials to the 20-year reign of Saddam Hussein, enormous in scale, exquisite in material and opulent in taste — the 100 palaces and “VIP luxury residencesâ€
Saddam has built across Iraq. U.S. officials and a former U.N. inspector say they also are perfect hiding places for weapons of mass destruction.
THE PALACES, say U.S. and U.N. officials, are the only places in Iraq that are secure enough, large enough and protected enough to conceal not just documents about the development of weapons, but the weapons and weapons material themselves.
“It would be ideal for the storage of weapons of mass destruction,†says former chief U.N. inspector Richard Butler, now an NBC analyst. “They were places directly associated with the president of Iraq’s special security apparatus — the people who both protect him and protect the weapons of mass destruction.â€
So far, only two of Saddam’s palaces — the Republican Palace, Iraq’s White House, and the Sijood Palace, Iraq’s executive office building, have been examined during the current round of inspections, but the United States wants inspectors to be more aggressive — and soon.
They won’t lack for locations.
Of the 100 palaces built by Saddam, half were constructed after the Gulf War at a rate of around five per year, said U.S. officials, speaking on condition of anonymity.
American did not "destroy" Iraq's sewer lines, water plants, power lines, etc.
Saddam Hussein neglected them, spent millions of dollars on himself, and allowed Iraq's infrastructure to crumble. It takes many years for the infrastructure to detriorate.
This is a report from before the 2003 invasion. Iraq's infrastrucute was neglected and was falling apart before the invasion.
Quote:
IRAQI CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE
Civilian infrastructure has suffered disproportionately from lack of maintenance and investment.
For example, Iraq's electrical sector is barely holding production steady at one third its 1990 capacity even though government expenditure in this sector consistently exceeds plans.[7]
Electrical shortages, worst during the hot summers, spoil food and medicine and stop water purification, sewage treatment and irrigated agriculture, interfering with all aspects of life. Last summer, a power plant accident threatened a catastrophic failure of the national grid.[8]
In 1991, the UN estimated that Iraq's electrical sector needed $12 billion [9] ($16 billion in 2001 dollars [10] to return to pre-[1991]war levels.
With depreciation and population growth, electrical repairs alone could consume much of the $31 billion that Oil for Food has generated for Iraq to date.[11]
While the Iraqi government has occasionally curtailed its UN-approved oil sales and does have smuggling revenue, the point remains:
Iraq's productive capacity is such that restoring its civilian infrastructure to pre-[1991]war levels will take a long time.
Do you know anything of what our American Soldiers have actually accomplished in Iraq? This could not have been accomplished by abandoning the people of Iraq.
Quote:
Army Engineers Help Build Potable Water Treatment Plant
Two new wells, each 20 to 30 meters deep, provide reliable source of water.
By A. Al Bahrani
Gulf Region South
BASRAH, Iraq, Feb. 12, 2007 — The Umm Qasr water treatment plant, one of the six largest infrastructure projects in southern Iraq,
provides potable water for Umm Qasr port facilities and the town of Umm Qasr, thanks to the efforts of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
The Corps has drilled two wells for water, built the building, installed 10 storage tanks, supplied and installed the reverse osmosis equipment and hooked up the power.
“Everything has been done from the ground up,†said Natalie Sudman, project engineer with Gulf Region South District (GRS).
“These things were requested by the Basrah governorate. They are now debating whether or not the water is specifically for the Port or for all of the public.â€
The $341,322 project is one of the more important ones for Umm Qasr, according to Ali, and Iraqi project engineer for GRS.
“I think that the water treatment plants and the other projects that we (Corps) do benefit individual Iraqis and help make a positive difference in their everyday lives,†Ali said, adding that the reverse osmosis plant will start operations early this year and have the capacity to produce up to 25 cubic meters of water per hour.
“Before the war in 2003, which liberated Iraq from tyranny, Umm Qasr citizens used to buy drinking water from the city of Basrah, which is about 60 kilometers away,†Ali said.
“Currently there are more than six water treatment plants projects under construction in the southern reign of Iraq. Most of them are scheduled to (start) later this year.â€
The Corps provided the two wells, each 20 to 30 meters deep, to ensure a reliable source of water, Sudman said. “These newly completed wells bring water right from the ground,†she said. “The project is expected to provide potable water to approximately 200,000 citizens.â€
Quote:
Water Treatment Plant Brings Fresh Water, Job Opportunities [for Iraqis]
NASIRIYAH - Construction of a new multi-million dollar water treatment plant here means fresh water for more than 500,000 residents. It also means a variety of new jobs, ranging from laborers to skilled engineers.
The plant serves the Dhi Qar communities of Nasiriyah, Suq Ash Sheuk, al-Diwaya, al-Shatra and al-Gharraf., and is a "world-class facility and the largest water treatment facility in Iraq," according to Lt. Col. Dale Johnson, Adder area engineer.
"The project contractor, Fluor-AMEC, worked for 26 months without an onsite accident - that is 4.5 million man hours without a recordable lost work-day accident," he said. "Now we are looking for people to fill the technical employment positions."
You are angry and irrational over politics & feelings and do not know the facts.
If you knew what the hell you were talking about you would know how much the US Military has accomplished for the Iraqi people and how much they are still needed for this brand new Democracy to make it.
I do not care what happens. Let them kill each other. If we hadnt been so greedy (oil) we wouldnt have even cared they were killing each other to begin with.
I do not care what happens. Let them kill each other. If we hadnt been so greedy (oil) we wouldnt have even cared they were killing each other to begin with.
If you don't care about other human beings
then why don't you go back to the Arizona Forum and continue to talk about cockroaches then?
I do not care what happens. Let them kill each other. If we hadnt been so greedy (oil) we wouldnt have even cared they were killing each other to begin with.
If it was about oil, then why did we invade Afghanistan?
I give salute to A.L for pointing out that we are providing services over there to help rebuild.As far as democracy,we may me trying to give that also,but I doubt it will prevail.
Location: Sitting on a bar stool. Guinness in hand.
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Reputation: 1721
Don't screw the Kurds again.
If the U.S. troops leave Iraqi there will be a continuation (and probably and uptick) of the already on going civil war. And to be honest I really don't care what happens to Sunnis or the Shiites. They're just going to have to fight it out and see who comes out on top.
What I do care about is the Kurds once again getting screwed over by us. I happen to think if there is a silver lining that can come out of this debacle, it is that the Kurds will love us and want to be westernized and be progressive if we back them. Yes I'm saying we should over see and help in forming a Republic of Kurdistan. Yes I also know the Turks are going to be pretty p!$$ed off that we back the Kurds on this one. But to be honest Turkey is looking more and more like is heading to a Islamic state and if their military can't keep things in check. We could lose Turkey as an Ally anyways. Plus there is one thing we can hold over Turkey to make them back off on the Kurds that is a membership in the EU. The Turks want it so bad I think they would give up just about anything to get in. So I say this. Let offer our complete support and back to help Turkey get into the EU. In return they give up beating up the Kurd population and let the Kurds have their own little country. Now I know that obviously that us is not in any way, shape or form in the EU. (we have to be a European country for that.) But we still have good ties in Europe from and economic perspective. So we can help the Turks get in through economic diplomacy at that end.
So basically what I'm saying is we create a Kurdistan. They will be the new Israel in the immediate area. That is progressive, forward thinking, Probably prosperous, and always on the brink of being destroyed by it neighbors that surround them. Hopefully they can fight like the Israel did. Of course we can always loan them some weapons if need be.
But if we don't decide to back the Kurds. I can pretty much see them being wiped out by the Turks first, and then the Iranians. And I just hang my head and say "We F#$@ed them again."
One giant welfare system. Rather use the money here.
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Don't screw the Kurds again.
