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Old 12-10-2010, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,889 posts, read 20,327,161 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
I don't get why people like Bill Gates and Bono keep on spending money on Africa when there are some very poor people in the US. The papers always talk about how the rich are donating their money but they either spend it on Africa or frivolous art projects.
Lets look at the wealth of pain and hunger that exists in Africa.

In the United States, on the other hand, I don't think anyone has to go hungry. There are public facilities that will feed almost everyone in this country. Sure, there are some people who won't seek the help and have problems, but the percentage of people in our country who go hungry is quite small.

I think Bill Gates is simply spreading the wealth.

If rich people want to help this country, they'll take a slight loss of revenue to keep jobs here at home.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:14 AM
 
7 posts, read 3,793 times
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If African country's really wanted to feed their people they would give free land to white American farmers that know how to grow food...
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:16 AM
 
Location: NoVA
1,377 posts, read 2,197,132 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
This is undoubtedly the most ignorant(to be charitable) post that I've read all day, and I've read a bunch of them.
Well if I were reading a similar post and had my head stuck up my own arse, I'd probably think the same thing. Fortunately, I know better than you. Africa = garbage. But don't take my word for it:

Quote:
Let Africa Sink
by Kim du Toit

When it comes to any analysis of the problems facing Africa, Western society, and particularly people from the United States, encounter a logical disconnect that makes clear analysis impossible. That disconnect is the way life is regarded in the West (it’s precious, must be protected at all costs etc.), compared to the way life, and death, are regarded in Africa. Let me try to quantify this statement.

In Africa, life is cheap. There are so many ways to die in Africa that death is far more commonplace than in the West. You can die from so many things--snakebite, insect bite, wild animal attack, disease, starvation, food poisoning… the list goes on and on. At one time, crocodiles accounted for more deaths in sub-Saharan Africa than gunfire, for example. Now add the usual human tragedy (murder, assault, warfare and the rest), and you can begin to understand why the life expectancy for an African is low--in fact, horrifyingly low, if you remove White Africans from the statistics (they tend to be more urbanized, and more Western in behavior and outlook). Finally, if you add the horrifying spread of AIDS into the equation, anyone born in sub-Saharan Africa this century will be lucky to reach age forty.

I lived in Africa for over thirty years. Growing up there, I was infused with several African traits--traits which are not common in Western civilization. The almost-casual attitude towards death was one. (Another is a morbid fear of snakes.)

So because of my African background, I am seldom moved at the sight of death, unless it’s accidental, or it affects someone close to me. (Death which strikes at strangers, of course, is mostly ignored.) Of my circle of about eighteen or so friends with whom I grew up, and whom I would consider "close", only about ten survive today--and not one of the survivors is over the age of fifty. Two friends died from stepping on landmines while on Army duty in Namibia. Three died in horrific car accidents (and lest one thinks that this is not confined to Africa, one was caused by a kudu flying through a windshield and impaling the guy through the chest with its hoof--not your everyday traffic accident in, say, Florida). One was bitten by a snake, and died from heart failure. Another also died of heart failure, but he was a hopeless drunkard. Two were shot by muggers. The last went out on his surfboard one day and was never seen again (did I mention that sharks are plentiful off the African coasts and in the major rivers?). My situation is not uncommon in South Africa--and north of the Limpopo River (the border with Zimbabwe), I suspect that others would show worse statistics.

The death toll wasn’t just confined to my friends. When I was still living in Johannesburg, the newspaper carried daily stories of people mauled by lions, or attacked by rival tribesmen, or dying from some unspeakable disease (and this was pre-AIDS Africa too) and in general, succumbing to some of Africa’s many answers to the population explosion. Add to that the normal death toll from rampant crime, illness, poverty, flood, famine, traffic, and the police, and you’ll begin to get the idea.

My favorite African story actually happened after I left the country. An American executive took a job over there, and on his very first day, the newspaper headlines read: "Three Headless Bodies Found".
The next day: "Three Heads Found".
The third day: "Heads Don’t Match Bodies".

You can’t make this stuff up.

As a result of all this, death is treated more casually by Africans than by Westerners. I, and I suspect most Africans, am completely inured to reports of African suffering, for whatever cause. Drought causes crops to fail, thousands face starvation? Yup, that happened many times while I was growing up. Inter-tribal rivalry and warfare causes wholesale slaughter? Yep, been happening there for millennia, long before Whitey got there. Governments becoming rich and corrupt while their populations starved? Not more than nine or ten of those. In my lifetime, the following tragedies have occurred, causing untold millions of deaths: famine in Biafra, genocide in Rwanda, civil war in Angola, floods in South Africa, famine in Somalia, civil war in Sudan, famine in Ethiopia, floods in Mozambique, wholesale slaughter in Uganda, and tribal warfare in every single country. There are others, but you get the point.

Yes, all this was also true in Europe--maybe a thousand years ago. But not any more. And Europe doesn’t teem with crocodiles, ultra-venomous snakes and so on.

The Dutch controlled the floods. All of Europe controls famine--it’s non-existent now. Apart from a couple of examples of massive, state-sponsored slaughter (Nazi Germany, Communist Russia), Europe since 1700 doesn’t even begin to compare to Africa today. Casual slaughter is another thing altogether--rare in Europe, common in Africa.

More to the point, the West has evolved into a society with a stable system of government, which follows the rule of law, and has respect for the rights and life of the individual--none of which is true in Africa.

Among old Africa hands, we have a saying, usually accompanied by a shrug: "Africa wins again." This is usually said after an incident such as:

a beloved missionary is butchered by his congregation, for no apparent reason
a tribal chief prefers to let his tribe starve to death rather than accepting food from the Red Cross (would mean he wasn’t all-powerful, you see)
an entire nation starves to death, while its ruler accumulates wealth in foreign banks
a new government comes into power, promising democracy, free elections etc., provided that the freedom doesn’t extend to the other tribe
the other tribe comes to power in a bloody coup, then promptly sets about slaughtering the first tribe
etc, etc, etc, ad nauseam, ad infinitum.
The prognosis is bleak, because none of this mayhem shows any sign of ending. The conclusions are equally bleak, because, quite frankly, there is no answer to Africa’s problems, no solution that hasn’t been tried before, and failed.
Just go to the CIA World Fact Book, pick any of the African countries (Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Malawi etc.), and compare the statistics to any Western country (eg. Portugal, Italy, Spain, Ireland). The disparities are appalling--and it’s going to get worse, not better. It has certainly got worse since 1960, when most African countries achieved independence. We, and by this I mean the West, have tried many ways to help Africa. All such attempts have failed.

Charity is no answer. Money simply gets appropriated by the first, or second, or third person to touch it (17 countries saw a decline in real per capita GNP between 1970 and 1999, despite receiving well over $100 billion in World Bank assistance).

Food isn’t distributed. This happens either because there is no transportation infrastructure (bad), or the local leader deliberately withholds the supplies to starve people into submission (worse).

Materiel is broken, stolen or sold off for a fraction of its worth. The result of decades of "foreign aid" has resulted in a continental infrastructure which, if one excludes South Africa, couldn’t support Pittsburgh.

Add to this, as I mentioned above, the endless cycle of Nature’s little bag of tricks--persistent drought followed by violent flooding, a plethora of animals, reptiles and insects so dangerous that life is already cheap before Man starts playing his little reindeer games with his fellow Man--and what you are left with is: catastrophe.

The inescapable conclusion is simply one of resignation. This goes against the grain of our humanity--we are accustomed to ridding the world of this or that problem (smallpox, polio, whatever), and accepting failure is anathema to us. But, to give a classic African scenario, a polio vaccine won’t work if the kids are prevented from getting the vaccine by a venal overlord, or a frightened chieftain, or a lack of roads, or by criminals who steal the vaccine and sell it to someone else. If a cure for AIDS was found tomorrow, and offered to every African nation free of charge, the growth of the disease would scarcely be checked, let alone reversed. Basically, you’d have to try to inoculate as many two-year old children as possible, and write off the two older generations.

So that is the only one response, and it’s a brutal one: accept that we are powerless to change Africa, and leave them to sink or swim, by themselves.

It sounds dreadful to say it, but if the entire African continent dissolves into a seething maelstrom of disease, famine and brutality, that’s just too damn bad. We have better things to do--sometimes, you just have to say, "Can’t do anything about it.

The viciousness, the cruelty, the corruption, the duplicity, the savagery, and the incompetence is endemic to the entire continent, and is so much of an anathema to any right-thinking person that the civilized imagination simply stalls when faced with its ubiquity, and with the enormity of trying to fix it. The Western media shouldn’t even bother reporting on it. All that does is arouse our feelings of horror, and the instinctive need to do something, anything--but everything has been tried before, and failed. Everything, of course, except self-reliance.

All we should do is make sure that none of Africa gets transplanted over to the U.S., because the danger to our society is dire if it does. I note that several U.S. churches are attempting to bring groups of African refugees over to the United States, European churches the same for Europe. Mistake. Mark my words, this misplaced charity will turn around and bite us, big time.

Even worse would be to think that the simplicity of Africa holds some kind of answers for Western society: remember Mrs. Clinton’s little book, "It Takes A Village"? Trust me on this: there is not one thing that Africa can give the West which hasn’t been tried before and failed, not one thing that isn’t a step backwards, and not one thing which is worse than, or that contradicts, what we have already.

So here’s my (tongue-in-cheek) solution for the African fiasco: a high wall around the whole continent, all the guns and bombs in the world for everyone inside, and at the end, the last one alive should do us all a favor and kill himself.

Inevitably, some Kissingerian realpolitiker is going to argue in favor of intervention, because in the vacuum of Western aid, perhaps the Communist Chinese would step in and increase their influence in the area. There are two reasons why this isn’t going to happen.

Firstly, the PRC doesn’t have that kind of money to throw around; and secondly, the result of any communist assistance will be precisely the same as if it were Western assistance. For the record, Mozambique and Angola are both communist countries--and both are economic disaster areas. The prognosis for both countries is disastrous--and would be the same for any other African country.

The West can’t help Africa. Nor should we. The record speaks for itself.
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:18 AM
 
Location: Annandale, VA
9,456 posts, read 7,613,949 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
US aid has destroyed farming in many African nations. What incentive does a farmer have to farm when his number one competitor is free food?
Exactly right. Even in Haiti the local govt is trying to get foreigners from supplying them with food because it WRECKS the local economy. How does a local farmer compete with FREE FOOD???
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Old 12-10-2010, 08:40 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
19,865 posts, read 18,336,981 times
Reputation: 7965
Comparing African poor to American poor is a bit ridiculous. I am neither African nor American, and of course I am more worried about poverty in Africa, it is another dimension. This has nothing to do with nationality. If I don't know a poor person personally, I don't care if s/he lives 100 miles or 10,000 miles from me. It is just as bad...

While the intentions behind private donations might be mostly good, I agree that our 'help' doesn't really help. Donations on the part of governments, churches, and companies are egoistic anyway.

But we certainly are not nearly as nasty these days as the Chinese. I read an article how they misbehave in Africa. Seems like they export all their criminal potential, that is kept at bay in China by tough laws, to Africa. There they simply shoot African workers when they demonstrate because of the horrible working conditions in mines and factories etc. They are a driving force behind poaching, smuggling, deforestation, corruption etc. This is one example of where we should thank Wikileaks for giving us insight into what's going on behind the scenes.

Last edited by Neuling; 12-10-2010 at 08:50 AM..
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:44 PM
 
6,322 posts, read 8,658,127 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder View Post
US aid has destroyed farming in many African nations. What incentive does a farmer have to farm when his number one competitor is free food?
You might like this article.




Quote:
African children are born into a cycle of dependency. Imagine yourself as a child, growing up in a country where your parents have been reduced to mere procreators. They cannot feed you, because their indigenous foods have been crowded out by exotic foods that came from donors.


Let us take a moment to look at some examples of hostile and intrusive programs run by the aid industry, particularly in Africa. Since food aid was introduced in the '60s, African eating-habits have changed -- and agriculture has been re-oriented to produce exotic crops that demand far more input than indigenous ones. Over 120 million people on that continent are faced with starvation. The cause -- though blamed on drought -- has everything to do with this change of crops -- as opposed to what could be done if we got science to work on the indigenous crops.


The "Food-aid-malware" has disorganised Africa's food production and is...

allAfrica.com: Africa: Foreign Aid Not Good for Region
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:56 PM
 
10,543 posts, read 11,691,594 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
I don't get why people like Bill Gates and Bono keep on spending money on Africa when there are some very poor people in the US. The papers always talk about how the rich are donating their money but they either spend it on Africa or frivolous art projects.
Maybe they spend it in the US as well and you just don't hear about it. You could ask the same question about the US government.
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Old 12-10-2010, 12:59 PM
 
507 posts, read 585,306 times
Reputation: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
I don't get why people like Bill Gates and Bono keep on spending money on Africa when there are some very poor people in the US. The papers always talk about how the rich are donating their money but they either spend it on Africa or frivolous art projects.
If it's their money (which it is), they can do whatever the heck they want with it.
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Don't be a cry baby!
1,310 posts, read 1,146,071 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
I don't get why people like Bill Gates and Bono keep on spending money on Africa when there are some very poor people in the US. The papers always talk about how the rich are donating their money but they either spend it on Africa or frivolous art projects.
Because it looks better to help a known charity case. If you help the thousands of homeless Americans the bottom (political) line is your only helping Americans, and that’s not cool. Even Barry follows this line of the “looking good without having to really do anything” philosophy. (Esp. Kenya)


I do agree with the above comment, its thier money, they can spend it the way they want!
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Old 12-11-2010, 01:17 AM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,445,882 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs. Skeffington View Post
Me too! I'm probably your mother's age, and when I didn't finish my plate, I was reminded about the "starving children in Africa". I could have cared less at that age about the starving children in Africa, and I told my mother she could mail them my unwanted dinner, and she slapped me.
I took it one step further in negotiations and asked if I could use my allowence to cover the s&h of said lima beans. Just to show how desperately serious I was, of course. It appears it's an American tradition right up there with 4th of july parades and apple pie- dinner table negotiations with children don't change much over the years.
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