U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Happy Easter!
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
547 posts, read 1,369,240 times
Reputation: 508

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
we all can do the same thing IF we are willing to do what is needed to get the job done. in my case, i started off in the hotel business doing relief night audit and relief front desk work. i worked my way up to various management positions. i did it because i dedicated myself to doing the best job possible, and striving for perfection. i also put in the long hours needed to get where i was. and if i wanted to, i could have gone much farther than i did as i had plenty of opportunity to do so.
Why did you strive for a hotel management position instead of an investment banking VP? If everyone can do the same thing, and if you were willing to try your best then why didn't you work at an investment bank?

I think I know a few reasons.

You didn't go to a magnet school because your parents couldn't afford the 30K per year for a private school.

You didn't get into the top private universities because you couldn't afford them and didn't have the chance in high school to get really good grades (you were probably working during the summer when some classmates went to Brazil to volunteer).

You might have had community college education but the top investment banks don't hire from CCs.

You didn't get an MBA (last chance for IB) because you didn't get a BA from a top school and you couldn't afford the 200K tuition.

Basically, you had no chance of working at a top investment bank and earning $1M per year as a VP. I just proved that "we all can do the same thing IF we are willing to do" is false.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:32 PM
 
1,019 posts, read 1,170,315 times
Reputation: 577
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff View Post
Success is a matter of luck, inheritance, hard work and intelligence. You are all correct.

However, I think people vastly overestimate the amount of inherited wealth in this country. My father was a venture capital executive with a Fortune 500 firm. He made close to a million dollars some years. My income is in the mid 100K's. I feel I am successful, but I also made it on my own. My parents money didn't get me where I am.

That having been said, I had advantages that poor but intelligent people don't get-- Connections, excellent college education, etc...
Your last sentence crystalizes the OP's point exactly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:37 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,074 posts, read 5,134,133 times
Reputation: 5767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
Of course hard work is important, but most of the rich are also very lucky. You need luck AND hard-work to be rich. The problem with setting taxes is that people just assume that the rich's wealth is proportional to their effort. I don't think that's true. I think it's more like after a certain amount of effort, you need luck to be super successful.

That's why I think the rich needs to have more taxes. It accounts for the luck factor.

The book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell talks a lot about how people become successful.
You are hilarious! Malcolm Gladwell talks about the importance of 10,000 hours effort to gain mastery of difficult tasks. Do you have any idea what it cost me to get 10,000 hours of practice at my craft? Do you know how many 60 and 70 hour weeks went into that, over a period of decades?

And you promote LUCK as the key factor??!!? Go ahead, try to tax the hell out of me to "account for the luck factor." See what happens.

What a worthless proposition--thirty years of hard work, and now I got lucky? I got into the top 10% of income earners by being of value to my fellow human beings, who voluntarily pay me money for my talents. Why don't you try being of value to the rest of us?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Atlanta metro
5,645 posts, read 3,978,127 times
Reputation: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
Most have never worked a day in their lives. Just look at people like paris hilton and the kardashians. Though there are many rags to riches self made millionaires, but the fact is the most never actually earned their mass wealth.
I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but you are dead wrong with the statements above. Not sure why you would think that MOST rich people have never worked a day in their lives. Paris Hilton does work, she actually works pretty hard, believe it or not, as does her sister. I can't speak for the Kardashians b/c I don't know a whole lot about them. They were born into wealth but they're not just sitting back saying "Gimme, gimme, gimme." A great example are Trump's kids, born into extreme wealth but yet they work their butts off.

Your assertion that rich people are lazy and don't work is not at all true. But, if it was, you're saying it's not okay for them to sit around all day. Pray tell, what do you think of the welfare folk? Hypocritical, to say the least.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:41 PM
 
Location: Atlanta metro
5,645 posts, read 3,978,127 times
Reputation: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
Of course hard work is important, but most of the rich are also very lucky. You need luck AND hard-work to be rich. The problem with setting taxes is that people just assume that the rich's wealth is proportional to their effort. I don't think that's true. I think it's more like after a certain amount of effort, you need luck to be super successful.

That's why I think the rich needs to have more taxes. It accounts for the luck factor.

The book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell talks a lot about how people become successful.
So anybody who has been "lucky" in life deserves to be penalized? I don't, however, think "luck" even exists, so I'm not going to argue the point about taxes b/c it's moot.

What you are completely missing out on is the fact that the "luck" you speak of is probably not luck. It's the balls to take an opportunity that presents itself. It's a contact you make, a referral from a networking luncheon, an angel investor that thinks your business plan has a good chance of making him and you some money. Learning from your mistakes and not making them again. Being assertive and asking for what you want instead of just plugging away at a dead-end job, hoping someone will maybe give you a promotion one day.

Thus, I'm going to ask you to clarify "luck."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
547 posts, read 1,369,240 times
Reputation: 508
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
You are hilarious! Malcolm Gladwell talks about the importance of 10,000 hours effort to gain mastery of difficult tasks. Do you have any idea what it cost me to get 10,000 hours of practice at my craft? Do you know how many 60 and 70 hour weeks went into that, over a period of decades?

And you promote LUCK as the key factor??!!? Go ahead, try to tax the hell out of me to "account for the luck factor." See what happens.

What a worthless proposition--thirty years of hard work, and now I got lucky? I got into the top 10% of income earners by being of value to my fellow human beings, who voluntarily pay me money for my talents. Why don't you try being of value to the rest of us?
I guess you missed the part where he talked about how most successful atheletes are born in January and Feburary? Did you also miss the part where he talked about the circumstances surrounding Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and the other computer giants?

Not everyone has the chance to get 10,000 hours of practice. Mozart couldn't have gotten it if he weren't born in a wealthy family.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrea3821 View Post
So anybody who has been "lucky" in life deserves to be penalized? I don't, however, think "luck" even exists, so I'm not going to argue the point about taxes b/c it's moot.

What you are completely missing out on is the fact that the "luck" you speak of is probably not luck. It's the balls to take an opportunity that presents itself. It's a contact you make, a referral from a networking luncheon, an angel investor that thinks your business plan has a good chance of making him and you some money. Learning from your mistakes and not making them again. Being assertive and asking for what you want instead of just plugging away at a dead-end job, hoping someone will maybe give you a promotion one day.

Thus, I'm going to ask you to clarify "luck."
I'll clarity for you using a personal example. I was born in China. I'd immigrated to Canada when I was 10. If I was born in 1980 instead of 1990 then I would've never had that chance. China didn't allow people to immigrate until the late 1990s. If my parents were born in 1950 instead of 1960 then they would've never had the chance to immigrate because China did not restart its universities until the late '70s (they were shut-down during the cultural revolution). If my dad didn't go to university then he wouldn't have be granted a Visa (they use a point system which favoured people with technical skills).

Of course, I might still be successful in China but it would've been a totally different situation and I'm 99% sure that I would like my current lifestyle more. I think this is an example of luck because I did nothing to ensure that my parents were born at the right time to take advantage of the opportunities (this is true because I couldn't have been born before my parents).

Last edited by Malkiel; 12-11-2010 at 06:54 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:48 PM
 
Location: Atlanta metro
5,645 posts, read 3,978,127 times
Reputation: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
FairTax - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Basically prices for goods will increase. That's what I'd said.
That's the simpleton's way of explaining it.

The tax system we have now is quite complicated and you don't even realize how much embedded taxes you're paying on basically everything you purchase. You also pay income tax, well, 53% of us do. You pay property taxes. There is a huge variety of taxes. The FairTax makes it simple, so yes, while you might pay slightly more for an item that is purchased new (used items are not taxed), you have more money to spend b/c you're not paying federal income tax. What you make is what you get, Uncle Sam doesn't get a portion of it first. Prices might even go down due to there not being any embedded taxes, it probably depends on the item.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Atlanta metro
5,645 posts, read 3,978,127 times
Reputation: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter_Sucks View Post
I don't like the Fair Tax. The Fair Tax is moving in the right direction, but it places too much of the tax at the end of sales. Taxing products along the way with a VAT is more efficient and less susceptible to abuse. Putting a huge sales tax at the end sales of a product is a disincentive to buy products. With a mix of a VAT and sales tax, we can keep the tax lower instead of putting a 23% sales tax on everything.
That doesn't make sense. VAT artificially inflates the price of the good. The end user might pay the same or more with a VAT plus sales tax. FairTax makes a lot more sense, especially since only new items are taxed and there are prebates for things like food.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Northeast
1,377 posts, read 850,290 times
Reputation: 406
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrea3821 View Post
I'm sure this has already been pointed out, but you are dead wrong with the statements above. Not sure why you would think that MOST rich people have never worked a day in their lives. Paris Hilton does work, she actually works pretty hard, believe it or not, as does her sister. I can't speak for the Kardashians b/c I don't know a whole lot about them. They were born into wealth but they're not just sitting back saying "Gimme, gimme, gimme." A great example are Trump's kids, born into extreme wealth but yet they work their butts off.

Your assertion that rich people are lazy and don't work is not at all true. But, if it was, you're saying it's not okay for them to sit around all day. Pray tell, what do you think of the welfare folk? Hypocritical, to say the least.
You praise Paris mean while she had a porno video and was caught with all sorts of drugs and went to jail...sort of. I bet you would not say the same for the Ho down the road, yet she works harder and does not get a TV show, singing career or work on the runway for doing the same
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-11-2010, 06:58 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,074 posts, read 5,134,133 times
Reputation: 5767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
I guess you missed the part where he talked about how most successful atheletes are born in January and Feburary? Did you also miss the part where he talked about the circumstances surrounding Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and the other computer giants?

Not everyone has the chance to get 10,000 hours of practice. Mozart couldn't have gotten it if he weren't born in a wealthy family.
Malkie, I'll admit your point--I did not miss those parts you mentioned. But I will never forget my wife telling me the Quickie Mart was hiring night help when I was accumulating my 10,000 hours--the hard way. I did not "have the chance" at 10,000 hours but I did it anyway.

Just watch that max tax rate--we're (top 10% earners) are already paying 70% of the federal income tax on our 50% of the income, a dispropotionately high rate, but that's fine. You go ratcheting it up much from there, I'll employ my skills halftime to stay out of the crosshairs of the class warriors, get rid of the help, and work on my suntan. We'll be poorer as a country, there will be fewer jobs, but I'll be fine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top