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Old 12-11-2010, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Texas State Fair
8,560 posts, read 11,176,879 times
Reputation: 4257

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlassoff View Post
Success is a matter of luck, inheritance, hard work and intelligence. You are all correct.

However, I think people vastly overestimate the amount of inherited wealth in this country. My father was a venture capital executive with a Fortune 500 firm. He made close to a million dollars some years. My income is in the mid 100K's. I feel I am successful, but I also made it on my own. My parents money didn't get me where I am.

That having been said, I had advantages that poor but intelligent people don't get-- Connections, excellent college education, etc...
Having an advantage is useless without the information and skills to make use of available tools. There is no luck involved. That you had advantages is simply a matter of egg and sperm at a point in time.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Texas State Fair
8,560 posts, read 11,176,879 times
Reputation: 4257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
Why did you strive for a hotel management position instead of an investment banking VP? If everyone can do the same thing, and if you were willing to try your best then why didn't you work at an investment bank?

I think I know a few reasons.

You didn't go to a magnet school because your parents couldn't afford the 30K per year for a private school.

You didn't get into the top private universities because you couldn't afford them and didn't have the chance in high school to get really good grades (you were probably working during the summer when some classmates went to Brazil to volunteer).

You might have had community college education but the top investment banks don't hire from CCs.

You didn't get an MBA (last chance for IB) because you didn't get a BA from a top school and you couldn't afford the 200K tuition.

Basically, you had no chance of working at a top investment bank and earning $1M per year as a VP. I just proved that "we all can do the same thing IF we are willing to do" is false.
Not all opportunities for Investment Banking VP require magnet schools, private universities or an MBA at the time the candidate for the position begins educational training... University. Perhaps an eventually completed MBA, but that would depend on the investment firm and certainly wouldn't be the single criteria.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:22 PM
 
Location: New London County, CT
8,949 posts, read 12,082,112 times
Reputation: 5145
Quote:
Originally Posted by tofurkey View Post
Having an advantage is useless without the information and skills to make use of available tools. There is no luck involved. That you had advantages is simply a matter of egg and sperm at a point in time.
Yes, but having advantages to begin with made those tools available to me. I went to an excellent public high school (frequently named as among the top 5 in the nation), an excellent university and had parents who were involved and could pay for any remediation I needed. The $800 SAT course raised my score by 200 points. I had a computer available to me at any time since I was little and computers were expensive and scarce. My mother didn't work, so she could spend time with me doing homework or transporting me to the library or other activities.

Among the reasons I acquired the tools for success (besides being a reasonably bright guy) was that my parents had the ability financially to provide me with the tools.

My father grew up very lower middle class in Brooklyn and worked his way thorough city college. Big difference in my experience and his.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:23 PM
 
3,117 posts, read 4,570,974 times
Reputation: 2880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
Of course hard work is important, but most of the rich are also very lucky. You need luck AND hard-work to be rich. The problem with setting taxes is that people just assume that the rich's wealth is proportional to their effort. I don't think that's true. I think it's more like after a certain amount of effort, you need luck to be super successful.

That's why I think the rich needs to have more taxes. It accounts for the luck factor.
l.

Here's a great comparison of "luck" vs. "success" when it comes to being rich.

Luck: You win the Powerball. There was a study done this past September that showed that people who won the lottery are just as likely, if not moreso, to declare bankruptcy within a certain amount of years (it was either 5 or 8) than those who did not win. Luck got them the money, sure. But it didn't save them from themselves, or their bad decision making and inability to grow true wealth.

Success: People who work hard and start their own businesses, or enter a specialized field (medicine, IT security, law, etc.). I don't care if it's a rich kid like the guy who started Rockstar Energy drinks or a rags-to-riches like Oprah, these people put in 100+ hour weeks getting their businesses off the ground, manage every little detail within their control, put in the blood, sweat, and tears to make their business successful. These people declare bankruptcy at a MUCH lower rate than their peers and are masters at growing true wealth. Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, Phil Knight, John Chambers are shining examples.

The difference between these two groups in terms of not only acquiring wealth, but building it, is not luck. The difference is solid decision making and an insatiable desire to be successful.

Know how I got where I am? While you were out riding bikes in the summer as a kid, my nose was buried in books. When you were riding around in the back of pickup trucks and thinking your whole life was going to be high school football games and parties, my nose was buried in books. When, if you even went to college at all, you dicked around to "find yourself", my nose was buried in books. When you majored in some vocationally worthless study like Liberal Arts or Political Science or 20th Century Women's studies because you wanted to "pursue your passion", my nose was buried in books for a field of substance. While you were slacking off and escaped with a 2.7 GPA, I was graduating Summa C.um Laude from the finest university on the face of this planet. While you were taking the first 40 hour a week, low-ceiling job you could find, I was taking something that consumed my life but paid a bit better. While you were out on Friday nights drinking with your buddies, I was at work. While you were buying a starter home and having kids you could barely afford, I was taking the money I had saved up and starting a business. While you continued to stay at your dead-end gig because it was an easy 40 and out, I was putting in 100 hour weeks growing my company. While you stagnated, my company expanded. The gap between us grew larger and larger as time went on, until we get to where we are today: I own an incredibly successful company that I pay others to run for me, and to supercharge my wealth, I work for a large company as well, even though I don't have to. While you're bemoaning how it's not fair that somehow I ended up with more than you, I'm making sure I stay ahead of the curve.

Luck had nothing to do with it. The end result was pre-determined the moment we stepped out onto the field. I wanted it, those who think it was all "luck" didn't.

You keep buying those lottery tickets, those of you who agree with the OP. I'm gonna keep my head down and take care of business, just like always.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:24 PM
 
401 posts, read 472,478 times
Reputation: 164
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
Of course hard work is important, but most of the rich are also very lucky. You need luck AND hard-work to be rich. The problem with setting taxes is that people just assume that the rich's wealth is proportional to their effort. I don't think that's true. I think it's more like after a certain amount of effort, you need luck to be super successful.

That's why I think the rich needs to have more taxes. It accounts for the luck factor.

The book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell talks a lot about how people become successful.
no comment.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:26 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,597 posts, read 44,352,506 times
Reputation: 13550
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
Just watch that max tax rate--we're (top 10% earners) are already paying 70% of the federal income tax on our 50% of the income, a dispropotionately high rate, but that's fine. You go ratcheting it up much from there, I'll employ my skills halftime to stay out of the crosshairs of the class warriors, get rid of the help, and work on my suntan. We'll be poorer as a country, there will be fewer jobs, but I'll be fine.
Yep. Starve the beast. See who can survive that the longest. I'd wager it won't be society's leeches.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Inland Levy County, FL
8,806 posts, read 6,076,696 times
Reputation: 2948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malkiel View Post
I guess you missed the part where he talked about how most successful atheletes are born in January and Feburary? Did you also miss the part where he talked about the circumstances surrounding Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and the other computer giants?

Not everyone has the chance to get 10,000 hours of practice. Mozart couldn't have gotten it if he weren't born in a wealthy family.



I'll clarity for you using a personal example. I was born in China. I'd immigrated to Canada when I was 10. If I was born in 1980 instead of 1990 then I would've never had that chance. China didn't allow people to immigrate until the late 1990s. If my parents were born in 1950 instead of 1960 then they would've never had the chance to immigrate because China did not restart its universities until the late '70s (they were shut-down during the cultural revolution). If my dad didn't go to university then he wouldn't have be granted a Visa (they use a point system which favoured people with technical skills).

Of course, I might still be successful in China but it would've been a totally different situation and I'm 99% sure that I would like my current lifestyle more. I think this is an example of luck because I did nothing to ensure that my parents were born at the right time to take advantage of the opportunities (this is true because I couldn't have been born before my parents).
That's not luck, though (your date of birth). That's life. If your dad didn't want to further himself, he wouldn't have been in school...unless of course he was dishonest when he immigrated (no, I'm not implying that). That's not luck, either. They favor people with technical skills, rightly so, we don't want to just let every Tom, Dick or Harry into this country to take our jobs. That's not luck, that's common sense. Your family wanted a better life for you, so they brought you over here, that's not luck, that's smart and loving.

The situation you describe about your personal history is honestly how a lot of wealthy people function...they want good things for their kids, so they work hard to provide for them. That's not luck. With all due respect, wealth really has nothing to do with it, you would just rather demonize the rich than acknowledge their hard work.

As to the first part of your post about the athletes, it's completely coincidental. Correlated, yes, but there is no causation there.

Of course everyone has a chance to do 10,000 hours of work. That's 5 years of working full time.

Honestly, you seem like a nice and intelligent person, but you seem to have a bit of a victim mentality. Also, if you're born in 1990, you haven't really experienced life yet. Just give yourself a chance to work hard and be successful, then you will see that luck has nothing to do with it.
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:29 PM
 
24,488 posts, read 41,013,397 times
Reputation: 12919
It's more like rich people either are lucky, work hard, or work smart.

lucky: win the lottery
work hard: doctor, lawyer, engineer, etc from top university putting in 100 hours/week
work smart: innovator or niche skilled person or entrepenuer

Just examples.

Those who make blanket statements abour rich people not working hard are just blind (possibly due to pure jealousy).
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:34 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,667,389 times
Reputation: 20028
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrea3821 View Post
What a load of crap. Sorry, but you are just full of stereotypes.

Private school, "good" colleges and MBAs don't guarantee that a person will be rich. The opposite is also true, in that people can come from nothing and not even have a high school education and end up being wealthy.

What if the person doesn't want to do investment banking? I have absolutely no interest in that, but I am a manager at a restaurant, I also do marketing. These are more along the lines of my personality and interests. I have the potential to make good money (not great) if I keep working hard. I'm okay with that, I don't need to be "rich" to be happy...however, I know ways I could make more money outside this line of work, things I may do after DH and I have more in savings. Anything is possible if you WANT it. Perhaps if I had followed my childhood dream of becoming a veterinarian I would be wealthier at this point in time. But reality quickly sets in when you're an adult and you figure out what you are and aren't cut out to do (I'm too emotional about animals, so being a vet would not be good for me).

Not everyone can do the same job, that was not implied by anyone. But if you want to do something, you can do it if you work hard enough at it. Nobody says "I'm gonna work hard to be an investment banker" if they don't have the drive to do investment banking to begin with.

Nice try, strawman.
you tell him girl. i tried to rep you but i couldnt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by antredd View Post
If a person works for minimum wage for all of his life, then he or she is poor because, for some reason, he or she didn't have the drive or motivation to learn a new trade or go back to school to earn more money. I have noticed that some people who stay in low paying jobs are not there because of lack of opportunities. They seem to be on those jobs because they just seem to think that's all that they can do. Hello????? Did they think about going to night school, learning a trade, getting their credit together to start a business, saving money to invest it?

One thing my parents taught me was that you can do anything you want to do if you put your mind to it. We all have to crawl before we walk, and my mom used to always tell me that if I were to get a job at Walmart, then at least strive to become a manager. I don't have to be a stocker or cashier for 30 years.

I don't believe in luck, but I do believe that one has to take advantage of the opportunities that are out there. In my opinion, hard work pays off for those who have the drive and motivation to want to become successful.
well said.

and by the way Malkiel there were no magnet schools around when i was growing up in the 60s and 70s.


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Old 12-11-2010, 07:34 PM
 
Location: SARASOTA, FLORIDA
11,486 posts, read 15,255,540 times
Reputation: 4894
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanathos View Post
Here's a great comparison of "luck" vs. "success" when it comes to being rich.

Luck: You win the Powerball. There was a study done this past September that showed that people who won the lottery are just as likely, if not moreso, to declare bankruptcy within a certain amount of years (it was either 5 or 8) than those who did not win. Luck got them the money, sure. But it didn't save them from themselves, or their bad decision making and inability to grow true wealth.

Success: People who work hard and start their own businesses, or enter a specialized field (medicine, IT security, law, etc.). I don't care if it's a rich kid like the guy who started Rockstar Energy drinks or a rags-to-riches like Oprah, these people put in 100+ hour weeks getting their businesses off the ground, manage every little detail within their control, put in the blood, sweat, and tears to make their business successful. These people declare bankruptcy at a MUCH lower rate than their peers and are masters at growing true wealth. Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, Phil Knight, John Chambers are shining examples.

The difference between these two groups in terms of not only acquiring wealth, but building it, is not luck. The difference is solid decision making and an insatiable desire to be successful.

Know how I got where I am? While you were out riding bikes in the summer as a kid, my nose was buried in books. When you were riding around in the back of pickup trucks and thinking your whole life was going to be high school football games and parties, my nose was buried in books. When, if you even went to college at all, you dicked around to "find yourself", my nose was buried in books. When you majored in some vocationally worthless study like Liberal Arts or Political Science or 20th Century Women's studies because you wanted to "pursue your passion", my nose was buried in books for a field of substance. While you were slacking off and escaped with a 2.7 GPA, I was graduating Summa C.um Laude from the finest university on the face of this planet. While you were taking the first 40 hour a week, low-ceiling job you could find, I was taking something that consumed my life but paid a bit better. While you were out on Friday nights drinking with your buddies, I was at work. While you were buying a starter home and having kids you could barely afford, I was taking the money I had saved up and starting a business. While you continued to stay at your dead-end gig because it was an easy 40 and out, I was putting in 100 hour weeks growing my company. While you stagnated, my company expanded. The gap between us grew larger and larger as time went on, until we get to where we are today: I own an incredibly successful company that I pay others to run for me, and to supercharge my wealth, I work for a large company as well, even though I don't have to. While you're bemoaning how it's not fair that somehow I ended up with more than you, I'm making sure I stay ahead of the curve.

Luck had nothing to do with it. The end result was pre-determined the moment we stepped out onto the field. I wanted it, those who think it was all "luck" didn't.

You keep buying those lottery tickets, those of you who agree with the OP. I'm gonna keep my head down and take care of business, just like always.
I agree with you.

Some people will always be jealous and always want to steal from successful hard working people and hand it to stupid loser bums who wont put out any effort.

Having worked and ran a business for 20 years with many 16-20 days and some days without even going to bed luck had nothing to do with my business growing.

It was hard work, determination to succeed and using the skills and knowing I had to create products that would sell.
This is the first time I have posted this but Disney was one of my best customers as I created a product that sold like hotcakes for them.
I sold to tons of large business who demanded items be done at a certain time and deliver on a certain date which required many days no sleep at all.

My business grew with no luck at all, it was all hard work, willing to do whatever it took to succeed and the brains to see a product that business all over the US, Canada etc wanted.

Poor people and non successful people are that way for a reason.

Stop trying to steal successful peoples money and EARN your own keep for once.
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