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View Poll Results: Conscript the Tea party patriots?
Yes, accountability needs to be restored to 1st amendment rights 12 50.00%
No, let them go on plotting against the USA dictate the new definition of America from the bottom up. 6 25.00%
Other more create options not mentioned 6 25.00%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-15-2010, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,471 posts, read 20,119,330 times
Reputation: 8388

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Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
The only thing you hear is drama. Why are you addicted to drama? Did I install that in your head?

Your full time career on CD is dedicated to animating everything you've accused others of doing. You see the country in terms of absolutes, and republicans are your saviors. Hail hail Ayn Rand worship. When no one is interested in the poison you're selling, you'll put poison in the ears of all about your 'competitor' (who was supposed to be your partner). Whose bright idea was it to claim that a republican dominated nation revising the constitution to suit themselves has anything to do with being an ACTUAL American? Why are so many republicans animating themselves words & deeds with intentions of annihilating all political parties 'failing to be them'?

No momon, as per usual, it's all about you. Troops be damned. Best interest of a nation be damned. The constitution be damned. Abuse every civil right you have and guarantee every one of those rights be depreciated or justify abolishment by lockstep authoritarians on both sides of the aisle. You are part of the sickness, not part of the solution. You're deluded beyond all reason, and it's intentional.

My intention of this thread was a very straightforward question about a very core principle of conservative values-- Personal accountability. Watching how many of you twisting in the breeze with outrageous accusations is only proving my point. You deflected the question by blaming Obama administration with revisionist history telling as the root of all problems in your warped world view. You can't even examine the root causes of fiscal disease if it in any slight way implicates your party, because you are loyal to the party, not to your country. The programs that paid for themselves didn't bring us here. The leeches glomming onto them & exploiting for unintended purposes did. You're defending leeches.

Drinking when you wrote this?
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:44 PM
 
Location: Fort Worth Texas
12,482 posts, read 8,842,238 times
Reputation: 2527
Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
Animated in self service even at the expense of their children. These same characters were all too happy to price their children out of their home town riding high with artificial self worth on hyper inflated real estate. I've got mine, cut the rungs of the ladders behind you so your kids can't follow. That's why it's become a joke and a half. Middle class used to be tasked with the hand up, not the hand out in the field, not handed the bill entirely AND do the work of tutoring. We taught the bottom how to lift themselves up but nouveau riche divorced themselves from that ethic. Ayn Rand installed in media, let the destruction of civilization commence.

So ask not what a given party is, but ask yourself what it is trying to protect. Tea is protecting Reaganomics as per newscorp & koch. The very same poison, the same hair of the dog they became wayward on. Business is redefined as corruption under reaganomics and that poison never left our government. They've only instructed the cops not to enforce the law, or erase the law entirely.
You can as usual back none of your claims up. The difference between your false repeated claims and a bucket of horse manure is the bucket
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Old 12-15-2010, 04:51 PM
 
11,127 posts, read 12,684,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
1st bolded post I'd need to see your evidence/ examples of that because it's inconsistent with what I saw on the ground in NY, what I heard from those upper new england states that have a wild card independent streak, and cali/ chitown. Just because some liberals are hawkish doesn't mean it represents them all any more than McVie represents NRA. Go to archives of youtube for peace marches, most of them met with abusive practices, and ZERO media coverage. Those weren't all liberals BTW- it was across party lines and ZERO polls indicating that. We've already had this conversation-- our checks and balances are breached. Liberals & dems weren't silent, they were systematically silenced. They were drowned out by electronically controlled cheer leaders. Ron Paul was similarly drowned out, as was Byrd. The most senior conservative Dem was saying no, and he was marginalized by whom?
Quote:
(a) IN GENERAL- That the President is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.
From this- The totals in the House of Representatives were: 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting (the Nay was Barbara Lee - D-CA). -- House Joint Resolution 64

On September 14, 2001 Senate Joint Resolution 23 passed in the Senate by roll call vote. The totals in the Senate were: 98 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Present/Not Voting (Senators Larry Craig - R and Jesse Helms - R).

This essentially constitutes ALL of our government, from both sides of the aisle, save a tiny minority of lonely voices. Of course, EVERY single US news agency, press outlet, and media company leaped into action and started promoting the War on Terror.

I should also note, that this resolution set in motion perpetual war by the very wording bolded in the quoted statement. However, it was in the wake of 9-11, everyone was emotionally driven as the first three things to leave America were reason, common sense, and the truth. As one of the very small minority of lonely voices, all I asked for concerning Afghanistan was, whats the goal and the plan to achieve this goal. I was met with ridicule, death threats and shouts of being anti-American for simply asking how we planned on achieving this war on terror. At this point I wasn't even against military action in Afghanistan, but merely questioned its end goals.

From this we moved into Iraq, where 82 House Democrats and 29 Senate Democrats voted in favor of invasion and occupation. This of course had 100% full endorsement of EVERY press outlet and media company in the United States. At this point, to voice opposition to this plan was still being met with cries of anti-American, terrorist sympathizer, sedition, aiding the enemy, etc... Yet, at least this time there were a few more voices on my side of the fence.

Yet, even when Democrats held the majority during the execution of our war against Iraq and its occupation, Democrats voted in favor of every single war funding request to come down the pike. Not ONCE did they say no, when already by this point the writing was on the wall. Yes, people at this time were out in open protest by the hundreds of thousands around the country and around the world.

Then came the election of Barack Obama, and his eluding to pulling everyone out of Iraq and focusing instead on Afghanistan. It was at the point when I felt Obama would win the election by a sound margin (about a month prior) that I knew the anti-war movement was dead. Obama sold the moderates on the right the notion of fighting the "good war" and those on the left of "finishing what we should have" and everyone was happy that finally we could end the trouble in Afghanistan. Only problem was that many military folks already knew what this meant, never ending perpetual war, and like Iraq, there would be shifting goal posts. First it was to capture or kill Bin Laden and rid Afghanistan of the ruling Taliban. Then it has shifted between ridding all of Afghanistan of Al Qaeda, but once our own military said there was likely less than 100 Al Qaeda left and that they moved across the border, we then shifted back to the Taliban in general along with "insurgents". Of course insurgents is any Afghani who has ever picked up a gun to defend what he sees is yet another in a long line of foreign invaders. We now have the stage set for NEVER leaving Afghanistan unless we either up and declare a hollowed victory or go bankrupt.

Meanwhile, those on the left are reluctant to criticize Obama for fear of sending his already dismal ratings plummeting even further down. Leaving the very real option of some Lindsy Graham or 100 year John McCain type in the big chair next cycle. So the left has remained nearly silent, and as luck would have it, there are a million other catastrophe's taking place that have kept the war off most American's minds. Easy to do now with a professional military force which most American's don't even have to think about as long as they have a Chinese made yellow support the troops sticker on the back of the minivan.



Quote:
2nd bolded post No one with sufficient authority did. I've never minced an apology to liberals that from moderate stance combined with my sense of loyalty to service, I squandered my time trying to calm people down and encouraged them to let the system work. I waited for DOJ to deliver and they had orders to sit. Am I guilty? Absolutely. We all are to some degree. But the ones most guilty are the ones who allowed their loyalty to their party to ditch their loyalty to their country. Bush exploited peoples instinct to defend their country, and their loyalty to our troops, by hiding behind my skirt. I don't think you could possibly get anymore cowardly than that.
To this I can only say that I'm glad to be free and liberated from party politics. I would never stoop so low as to adjoin with Democrats or Republicans ever again in my lifetime as they are beneath me. I do tend to agree that we do all share some level of responsibility towards the world we have made for ourselves and in my case, the first step I took was getting rid of the puss filled infectious and rancid boil known as party politics. Spending a few years outside of our now ignorant left right dialectic has truly opened my eyes to just how dysfunctional and broken this system really is. The arguments people use against the opposition sides are often the same concepts they support when their party is in favor, its sickening, hypocritical, and regressive.

Quote:
3rd bolded post An XO who taught me a thing or two about leadership. When a crew is too occupied back biting, you've got to give all of them something to be miserable about together. Martial law was started when? Obama using those tactics he could have easily flooded the market with a flat tax of inflation. Redistributed wealth and instant justice for profiteers of strife, because one way or another we're all (western civilization) collateral damage in this game played by think tanks. China has sat back grinning like a cheshire cat. When infighting reaches it's highest pitch in power grabs, the ball reliably delivers itself to your feet. There are ill motivated people in libertarian camp doing the exact same thing. Every character Tea has sent to DC is instructed to engage power grabs, not to serve their country. They're targeting moderate candidates throughout the spectrum to perpetuate the infighting mode long enough to finish bleeding our country out.

The damage from 911 continues because we allowed it. It continues because there are too many who really believe we do not need to change, and others still mean to seize this opportunity to eradicate the constitution as we know it. Our financial catastrophe was exploited to it's extremes playing one partisan off another partisan, blinded to everything they were doing. We were financially attacked from within and it's done more damage to global trade in the whole of western civilization than any plane knocking down WTC could ever aspire. Right still does not believe there's anything wrong with itself that turning back the clock (50's, 20's, antebellum south) won't cure. Maybe going completely broke is the only thing that's going to make them let go of their life long affair with corrupt business practices, but I seriously doubt it because it's their next meal ticket. They've consistently come to the aid and defense of corruption. How can you let that go? What says Ron Paul on this subject? Please explain.

Buyers remorse--- 911 was a sucker punch, it was a common sentiment across all party lines in NY and republican lackey's claimed NY'rs needed therapy for saying it. RW media did it's level best to paint all blue states as 911 truthers, but in their defense, why was evidence needful of suppression? Every conspiracy theory known to man can only thrive in darkness. I believe that was intentional to keep people distracted the same way Tea is being used as diversionary tactic. So, we told you so too, if any of you cared to listen. Did you, or did the media decide you didn't need to hear? That said, who still refuses to hear that? Not dems. Not libertarians. Not Indies. Who does that leave standing?
While you certainly make many valid points, many of which I certainly will not even dispute, I, as witness and a recovering party politik myself, can note is that it doesn't even matter which "side" you choose to serve an alliance with, you will always end up defending things you personally disagree with in the name of the party. The definitions of what it is today to be a Liberal or a Conservative or what constitutes a Libertarian have under gone change, a little word here, a little nuance there, and before you know it, what a political party stood for in 1950 or 1960, or even 1970 is suddenly very different from what we see today.

There is a growing number of people like myself, from either side of the political aisle who are standing back and looking at the whole saying, "What on God's green earth is going on here, how the hell did our house end up in shambles". Meanwhile, those fixed within established political definitions will forever continue blaming the other guy while excusing their own parties transgressions. Even you have seen this and pointed it out in your post above. The only way to break this cycle and spiral down to the abyss is to remove oneself from it. The Tea Party is NOT one single hive mind, even if many of its parts look like parts of the old machine. Ignore those parts and encourage the rest, but if you can't even distinguish the parts, then fixing the engine is impossible.
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Old 12-15-2010, 05:01 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,848,960 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom77falcons View Post
Which "country" would that be, Nevada or the USA? I ask since most Tea Partiers seem to believe the US is made up of 50 different countries. You know, the whole sovereign state thing.
Republican brand of prosperity is not the concept of unlimited pie, but pitting states against one another economically. What was promised and what got delivered were two separate things. Same thing happens on global scale pitting one sovereigns economy against another, rebranding slavery outside our yards. There are no win win plans in their hands. Rob from peter to pay paul at best, hobble or run into the ground the real economic engines of this nation at worst. Can Texas stand on it's own merits without installing Enron to cut down California? This negative competition they've endorsed serves capitalists. Those bankrolling propaganda to pit citizens against one another have no allegiance to our constitution.

Tea does not care to hear that the will of the people spoke- we want health care, and we want a public option. A vocal minority is not presenting a reasoned well thought out argument, or even presenting their concerns about what it is they mean to protect. There are no meaningful alternative plans in their hands. They're attacking liberals and moderates of both sides of the aisle. They're verbally attacking people- this very thread case in point. This nation, and our troops, is entirely irrelevant. Armchair warriors and bloodthirsty mobs whipped into frenzy 'rule', so they believe, but they cannot see the sweet little birdie whispering in their ears selling them a magic bullet is pure evil. Atlas shrugged is merely another brand of Utopic insanity.

No doubt about it the Obama administration does deserve criticism. There is an absence of legitimate criticism, and an abundance of BS criticism from all sides. Shall we continue occupying our time engaging cult followers with reason? Blanche Lincoln was being fired upon from 5 directions. Ron Paul fired upon from 5 directions. Senator Byrd fired upon from 5 directions. Why so? Why are there so many disruptions of the court? Why are there so many animated in bad faith negotiations?
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:59 PM
 
Location: mancos
7,179 posts, read 6,473,667 times
Reputation: 4946
Why dont you suggest this to you representatives and get ignored or laughed at by them instead of on a public forum. just a suggestion
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Old 12-15-2010, 08:55 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
66,553 posts, read 33,830,937 times
Reputation: 14261
Isn't that like asking liberals have their nuts cut off so they can't breed their filth.
Or let the have free reign and ruin this nation?
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Old 12-15-2010, 09:54 PM
 
32,483 posts, read 26,364,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
The tea people are for the most part, overweight, underinformed white retirees.

What purpose could they serve in Afghanistan other than easy target practice for the Taliban?
put a barrett .416 sniper rifle in my hands, and give me an experienced spotter, and i will show you target practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
I'm glad you brought that up because it's an echo of a common illness.
The jury is still out on global warming considering both sides saw fit to manufacture evidence in competing brands of junk science. Who profits from such a mockery of truth & justice? Science is to be in service to truth, not to capitalism. Science is unable to do it's job when only the highest bidder decides what merits investigation and what gets published.

So I can agree with you wholeheartedly only if you will also agree that if global warming is proven true, you accept the life long duty of operating hand bilge pumps to irrigate crops rendered to dust from drought, and hand bilge pumps to de-flood states/ cities like new orleans.
you keep suggesting that global warming, properly called global climate change, is man caused, but the geological record proves you wrong since it has been going on for more than 4 BILLION YEARS. it is cyclical in nature, and it has been proven time and time again through ice core records, deep ocean silt core records, and many other geological records.

Quote:
Originally Posted by harborlady View Post
Republican brand of prosperity is not the concept of unlimited pie, but pitting states against one another economically. What was promised and what got delivered were two separate things. Same thing happens on global scale pitting one sovereigns economy against another, rebranding slavery outside our yards. There are no win win plans in their hands. Rob from peter to pay paul at best, hobble or run into the ground the real economic engines of this nation at worst. Can Texas stand on it's own merits without installing Enron to cut down California? This negative competition they've endorsed serves capitalists. Those bankrolling propaganda to pit citizens against one another have no allegiance to our constitution.
sounds like you are talking more about democrats than republicans. democrats believe in a static economy always thinking that taxes increase revenues when it has been shown time and time again that they DONT. democrats are blaming the bush era tax rates for the deficit, but the realty again is that tax revenues INCREASED under bush, and that deficits went down through 2006, and then back up in 2007 when the democrats took over congress.

Quote:
Tea does not care to hear that the will of the people spoke- we want health care, and we want a public option. A vocal minority is not presenting a reasoned well thought out argument, or even presenting their concerns about what it is they mean to protect. There are no meaningful alternative plans in their hands. They're attacking liberals and moderates of both sides of the aisle. They're verbally attacking people- this very thread case in point. This nation, and our troops, is entirely irrelevant. Armchair warriors and bloodthirsty mobs whipped into frenzy 'rule', so they believe, but they cannot see the sweet little birdie whispering in their ears selling them a magic bullet is pure evil. Atlas shrugged is merely another brand of Utopic insanity.
yes the people did speak, and they said loud and clear NO PUBLIC OPTION, despite what the liberals say. in fact the people have said NO to obamacare in this election cycle. yes there are things in the bill that are in fact good, but overall the bill is a horrid steaming pile of feces. a number states have already, are are working on, putting laws into place to prevent the federal government from forcing obamacare onto the residents of those states. it passed here in arizona rather handily as well as in MO and OK. as for utopia, that is what the liberals are always trying to legislate.

as for alternative plans, the republicans have put up many, the problem is that the mainstream media and the democrats have ignored them.
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:05 PM
 
11,961 posts, read 12,848,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
From this- The totals in the House of Representatives were: 420 Ayes, 1 Nay and 10 Not Voting (the Nay was Barbara Lee - D-CA). -- House Joint Resolution 64

On September 14, 2001 Senate Joint Resolution 23 passed in the Senate by roll call vote. The totals in the Senate were: 98 Ayes, 0 Nays, 2 Present/Not Voting (Senators Larry Craig - R and Jesse Helms - R).

This essentially constitutes ALL of our government, from both sides of the aisle, save a tiny minority of lonely voices. Of course, EVERY single US news agency, press outlet, and media company leaped into action and started promoting the War on Terror.
I would like to offer evidence of this trend predating our current wars. See CNN coverage of gulf 1 war. Sanitary, pure propaganda, shiny happy troops. That had no bearing on reality and gulf war syndrome continues to be denied as credible. It's yanked out of the hands of the VA to face head on scientifically with every flavor of the month change of political paradigms imposed upon them. How much did CNN profit, and how many media outlets followed their cookie cutter lead since? All of them if they mean to remain commercially viable. Everything we debate about is framed in terms of money, and if it defies being priced, what is priceless gets intellectually debased as useless. This is where Buckley was lured into intellectual dishonesty. He satisfied himself with a competing brand of thespian arrogance. Yale vs Harvard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
I should also note, that this resolution set in motion perpetual war by the very wording bolded in the quoted statement. However, it was in the wake of 9-11, everyone was emotionally driven as the first three things to leave America were reason, common sense, and the truth. As one of the very small minority of lonely voices, all I asked for concerning Afghanistan was, whats the goal and the plan to achieve this goal. I was met with ridicule, death threats and shouts of being anti-American for simply asking how we planned on achieving this war on terror. At this point I wasn't even against military action in Afghanistan, but merely questioned its end goals... to voice opposition to this plan was still being met with cries of anti-American, terrorist sympathizer, sedition, aiding the enemy, etc... Yet, at least this time there were a few more voices on my side of the fence.
Dixie chicks had a bigger pair than most, wouldn't you say? People may not appreciate the way they went about things, but then again, those same people do not offer a better way to go about things.

Your reasoned approach and the backhanding response is the very thing womankind has faced with mankind since civilization began. Ideally what is 'womans work' serving humanity is a function of temperance. Not smothering, not coveting power for self service, but channeling energy properly. Sorry but our language requires me to speak in absolutes to get a point across, so this analogy isn't purist true, but crudely points at dynamics of humanity. The voice of reason in a man is his mother. The commitment to defend and protect all that is worthy of defense is his father. Disdain for one or both is dysfunction in the individual, and echoes in the civilization. Honor thy mother and thy father has a deeper wisdom to it even if you don't care for what has animated itself under the banner of religion. They aren't practicing their religion, and that's the problem within religions (all of them).

So welcome to my world, sir. The messenger is shot. The peace keeper right on cue is the first casualty. Those conscientious enough to be mindful of choices balanced by ethics are accused of being milquetoast and weak. The military & government is 'threatened' with becoming 'feminized' as per RW. Those abandoning the drama of radicals & asserting order be restored to the court are vilified as henchmen doing the bidding of entrenched authority. Ron Paul smeared by the rank and file of Tom Delay/ Dick Armey golden calf worshipers. Ross Perot 'stole' their constituents and so they were justified to 'steal' elections & undermine third parties with dirty tricks. Neophyte members of move on disrupting a local legislative gathering with Senator Byrd giving him a crayon finger wagging lecture about no war. He rightfully tossed them out on their ear, and I salute. Not a suppression of free speech, but an assertion of responsible speech. Tea & Fox news camera's didn't express any moral outrage over this incident, now did they? They also didn't come to the aid and defense of anyone protesting the war on grounds of reason. They see their duty as citizens to selectively enforce the law. I openly call liberals out on their BS but no one is allowed to call rabid right wing on their BS. They're 'victims' of America itself. The white al sharpton of conservatives operates on a multi trillion dollar budget.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Yet, even when Democrats held the majority during the execution of our war against Iraq and its occupation, Democrats voted in favor of every single war funding request to come down the pike. Not ONCE did they say no, when already by this point the writing was on the wall. Yes, people at this time were out in open protest by the hundreds of thousands around the country and around the world.

Then came the election of Barack Obama, and his eluding to pulling everyone out of Iraq and focusing instead on Afghanistan. It was at the point when I felt Obama would win the election by a sound margin (about a month prior) that I knew the anti-war movement was dead. Obama sold the moderates on the right the notion of fighting the "good war" and those on the left of "finishing what we should have" and everyone was happy that finally we could end the trouble in Afghanistan. Only problem was that many military folks already knew what this meant, never ending perpetual war, and like Iraq, there would be shifting goal posts... We now have the stage set for NEVER leaving Afghanistan unless we either up and declare a hollowed victory or go bankrupt.
Make yourself a student of Vietnam. Here is but one chapter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oL2omEpCqo
You won't hear a kind word spoken about Johnson from democrats because he doesn't deserve it, but you aren't likely to ever hear a kind word about Ford from Republicans because they don't want to believe he was heroic anymore than they want to believe Ron Paul. It doesn't match their glamor puss Rambo self image.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySN7oBp-c_s

We as a nation haven't had an honest conversation about Vietnam in terms of the fatal errors inherent in strategic objectives and methods. The lessons we needed to learn- you aren't likely to see consensus because too many are vested in saving face. Carry that lost lesson present tense we haven't had an honest conversation about the ideal/ effective methods for combating terrorism. Hawks muscle that conversation. Heavy handed authoritarianism/ Imperialist approach is entrenched on both sides of the aisle. This is a persistently grave error drowning out productive discussions, but it's a real crowd pleaser among those trained to subordinate self defense instincts to authoritarian figures. I happen to be one of those people, a leftover handicap from military training that resonates with Bacevich. I agree with anarchists that this has dangerous implications in national defense arena. The more pragmatic national defense strategy would be empowering citizens training them in self defense & emergency preparedness. Instead we've collectively (even local officials) been instructed to pine away for the Dem red cross and the Repub national guard to show up.

Obama and dems are not the scourge they're being characterized. Any radical course corrections Obama could have made would have the resulting effect of power vaccums left in our wake. The Iraqi people are being forced to figure out how to make it work or be permanently subjected to tribes vying for dominance over them all. We are in many respects in the same shoes if you haven't noticed. While our troops found themselves caught in the crossfire of disparate tribes abroad, they're coming home to find disparate tribes talking about seccession. They're coming home to wild infighting and people in power struggles trampling the constitution if it serves their personal agenda. Obama isn't doing that trampling, but he isn't correcting that trampling either. Patriot act needs an exit to the circular file. Neither side seems willing to negotiate it's removal despite the majority of We the People desiring to be rid of it.

Republican plan for Iraq was to adopt 29 million people as welfare cases. It's not anything we had business to promise because it's undeliverable. America is now predictably blamed for interfering and controlling Iraq and ambitious thugs are being painted as heroes. Make yourself a student of McVeigh going off the deep end. You'll see that the mission statement of the White House/ congress during gulf 1 was not the same mission statement on the ground. They made promises to the Iraqi people while fighting in Kuwait that were not promises authorized by congress. The mission statement corrupted messed his mind up. Present tense Kuwaiti wealth is bankrolling their brand of 'freedom fighters' firing upon US troops in Iraq. Those same promises were made on the ground in vietnam, only to haunt vietnam vets even to this day. See a pattern here? Same pattern in Afghanistan when Reagan/Bush trained & armed taliban.

The goal post had to change- he didn't sell that to anyone. We all knew but just didn't talk about it because the hawks still feel the need to sell their version of reality. Talking about it openly is still being thought of as disloyal to the troops, or a negation of their achievements as if we would be blaming them for failures in leadership. The reality is inheriting a flawed policy put anyone sitting in the chair tasked with managing worms. We cannot extract ourselves with immediacy or everything that's been accomplished thus far will be handed over to the next despot. Our plans overseas must downsize and increased size in surge in afghanistan is matched to what objectives? Those objectives have changed, and they will continue to change because they must.

The libertarian view reigning in 'empire' is inevitable. The truth is on their side, but their material plan as it is comes up empty handed or lacking foresight. The problem with most libertarian philosophy is that it negates all forms of confronting problems expecting that all problems will work themselves out by themselves. That sort of mentality means everyone in need of water ought to live by the river or die of thirst whereas civilization decided collectivist aqueducts were a more pragmatic solution than 5 million dug wells or 5 million junkets on the coast. Libertarian philosophy negates an operating system, the purpose of governance, and as such, negates a meaningful role in governance. Pushing the intellectual envelope a bit further would make them ideal contributors for policy shaping. If I could hit Ron Paul in the back to make the ideas cough out of his mouth I surely would. Beyond 'ending the fed' requires a new financial system born.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
Meanwhile, those on the left are reluctant to criticize Obama for fear of sending his already dismal ratings plummeting even further down. Leaving the very real option of some Lindsy Graham or 100 year John McCain type in the big chair next cycle. So the left has remained nearly silent, and as luck would have it, there are a million other catastrophe's taking place that have kept the war off most American's minds. Easy to do now with a professional military force which most American's don't even have to think about as long as they have a Chinese made yellow support the troops sticker on the back of the minivan.
The far left has irrational expectations just like the far right do. They're either going to learn something from Obama or they're going to insist their idealism can be delivered by some other savior just like the far right worshiping Palin. I see them less occupied learning that lesson while far right is instructed to relive out millions of wars already fought. Why are all meaningful conversations dominated by flat earth salesmen? They don't mean to get along or find a better way. They mean to regress and America allows them to, but they mean to force everyone to regress along with them. Ironic, isn't it? They're typing on a collectivist computer in a collectivist network regurgitating information from a collectivist news source and insist everyone else is a communist. What exactly is plan B for these people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
To this I can only say that I'm glad to be free and liberated from party politics. I would never stoop so low as to adjoin with Democrats or Republicans ever again in my lifetime as they are beneath me. I do tend to agree that we do all share some level of responsibility towards the world we have made for ourselves and in my case, the first step I took was getting rid of the puss filled infectious and rancid boil known as party politics. Spending a few years outside of our now ignorant left right dialectic has truly opened my eyes to just how dysfunctional and broken this system really is. The arguments people use against the opposition sides are often the same concepts they support when their party is in favor, its sickening, hypocritical, and regressive... The definitions of what it is today to be a Liberal or a Conservative or what constitutes a Libertarian have under gone change, a little word here, a little nuance there, and before you know it, what a political party stood for in 1950 or 1960, or even 1970 is suddenly very different from what we see today.
I used to be angry about it too but I arrived somewhere else over the years. The problem with each of them as a 'brand' is that it assumes any one ideology ever had all the answers for any and all circumstances. It never did, which is why you've seen so much flip flopping around in history, and also a ready made cloak of respectability for supremacists to mask ambitions. Normal individuals going about their lives learn to assess problems intelligently, let the common sense solutions prevail & choose from a vast array of tools to build or repair. Being beholden to rigid ideology ties their hands behind their backs.
The representative system is rendered corrupt when the expectations of constituents are irrational. They're made irrational by marketeers on madison avenue selling armament to both sides. You can map out the military industrial complex, but how well has the madison avenue industrial complex been mapped out? People are driven to distraction and led around by things that have nothing to do with who they truly ARE as individuals, real values subsumed for material ones, and our very identity as Americans has been tooled away from our core identity.

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Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
While you certainly make many valid points, many of which I certainly will not even dispute, I, as witness and a recovering party politik myself, can note is that it doesn't even matter which "side" you choose to serve an alliance with, you will always end up defending things you personally disagree with in the name of the party.

There is a growing number of people like myself, from either side of the political aisle who are standing back and looking at the whole saying, "What on God's green earth is going on here, how the hell did our house end up in shambles". Meanwhile, those fixed within established political definitions will forever continue blaming the other guy while excusing their own parties transgressions. Even you have seen this and pointed it out in your post above. The only way to break this cycle and spiral down to the abyss is to remove oneself from it. The Tea Party is NOT one single hive mind, even if many of its parts look like parts of the old machine. Ignore those parts and encourage the rest, but if you can't even distinguish the parts, then fixing the engine is impossible.
1st bold Accept that we are all creatures of habit, but if you don't mind I'd like to show you another perspective of your statement by reframing it. Your personal disagreement isn't about party more than it's anecdotal experience within your culture or what you've seen/ read in your travels describing what works and what doesn't. If the party's themselves lean on those tools, they don't really own them, that's an illusion of persuasion. In that light reaganomics was experienced by myself and many others as multi level marketing scheme, nothing original about it. My preferred economic model is permaculture unknown by mainstream and not utilized by any party.

2nd bold I agree with the first part of your assertion and applied this not only to politics but religion as well. Organized religion is suffering from the same misdirection of intent. The second part of your statement I've seen evidence to the contrary, but will reframe the statement. The common thread for all americans is a laundry list of grievances- without a doubt something is rotten in Denmark (not to literally blame the Danes), but abstract legal baffling prevents us from seeing clearly whose hands did this, and who willfully tricked the law man to shoot the wrong guy.
What sets Tea apart from the rest is the long parade of culprits installed by media convicted on circumstantial evidence. Anything 'left' is evil incarnate. Dano/ yeldaf/ roys offer zero acknowledgment as equal citizens for myself or veterans for peace. Classic selective attention/ selective enforcement of civic duty. Tea is trained to blame employees for why corporations fail, absolving leadership entirely. They blame mexicans for deliberate lapses in leadership that served their purpose economically at the expense of the people (including those mexicans). Name any given position they're taking and it's going to amount to the exact same theme. Convict the wrong man to enable the real crooks to go unchallenged, or worse, raise the actual perpetrator to stature of hero/ savior. The louder they yell, the more egregious the accusations, the more I see how flimsy their case was all along.

This very thread is testimony. Witness every single response defending Tea. They cannot speak a word without engaging smear tactics and presume my guilt & my intentions for the audacity to question their objectives. It's all right here if you look at the content of their grievance with me. You know first hand I've argued with progressives, and still they insist on convicting indies in the vast left wing conspiracy dragnet. The content of their grievances are rendered gibberish because the prejudiced world view has been installed. That doesn't mean far left liberals haven't exercised their own version of prejudice. We're only stuck with competing brands of yahoos. In the spirit of true justice, shall I convict these people based on their own abuse of evidence?

As for Ron Paul... if his alliances weren't where they were, speaking from pure principles, he would be in support of eradicating campaign finance up for the highest bidder & support the reinstatement of legal accountability. So would Tea, but they prefer to carry on status quo with money bombs. What animates all the things he takes issue with are the special interests owning the attention & direction of elected officials off point from their jobs. It's near impossible for an honest man/ woman to do their job in DC. We have a system of legalized corruption and neither Paul nor Obama has the vested authority to change the basis of their office. That must come from the bottom up but all the powers that be benefiting from this status quo buried the concept with gibberish and infighting.

Another example- if we were to find the alternative to Gitmo we could have chosen a jury of judges (potentially modified military tribunal) capable of handing sensitive material with discretion in closed session court and still remained in compliance with our own laws. If we were to revise the function of Homeland Terrorism we would not be operating with big brother mindsets, but rather, empowering individuals & local LE in the position to defend themselves. Instead authoritarians write policy and employ LE to potentially act as predators depending on political interpretations of the bible. NRA, martial artists, and Red Cross could be working together to craft policy in small scale emergency response managed locally, but so long as these orgs are kept separated by horse blinder labels, they cannot put 2+2 together. Instead everyone plays dead and passive aggressive points at the great Oz federal authority jurisdiction preventing them from active mgmt. Does it, or is it just a ready made excuse for a lifestyle choice they made, yet are directed to blame their fellow countrymen over?
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:10 PM
 
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Old 12-16-2010, 02:25 PM
 
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Why dont you suggest this to you representatives and get ignored or laughed at by them instead of on a public forum. just a suggestion
Are representatives responsible for the rules in DC predating them specifying the terms and conditions of employment? Do representatives have any accountability or consequences for corrupt practices beyond losing their job which is increasingly a touchstone for lucrative plans? Do you find there's something ethically wrong with a congressman crafting legislation that favors an industry he then leaves office to participate in & rewarded with golden parachutes? We'll only enforce ethics when military members of high rank do the same thing selling military contracts?
No party is immune from this phenomena. No jurisdiction is safe from this kind of treachery. Now look at this financial debacle honestly. HONEST business suffers right along with the rest of us. HONEST politicians suffer right along with the rest of us. You and I have little ability to keep them honest when they're surrounded by the snakes that really run the show. Both sides use arguments against corruption, but neither are enabled to confront it meaningfully because special interests are seasoned & entrenched in the system making pawns of all elected officials bound by constraints of office. Special interests have no such constraints, nor are they compelled to have allegiance to America or her best interests.
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