Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-17-2010, 07:05 PM
 
3,400 posts, read 1,442,097 times
Reputation: 1111

Advertisements

Our Constitution states that Congress shall have power to:

…regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes

So, just what is the meaning of “commerce” which Congress may regulate when it occurs “among the several States”? Keep in mind this question is of critical importance because a fundamental rule of constitutional law requires:

”Words or terms used in a constitution, being dependent on ratification by the people voting upon it, must be understood in the sense most obvious to the common understanding at the time of its adoption… ___(my emphasis) See: Vol.16, American Jurisprudence, 2d Constitutional law (1992 edition), “Meaning of Language“, “Ordinary meaning, generally“

In fact, the historical record establishes that the word “commerce”, as our founding fathers used the word during the framing and ratification process of our Constitution, was understood to mean the transportation and/or exchange of goods. In U.S. vs. Lopez, our very own Supreme Court, after quoting the use of the word “commerce” from countless contemporary sources during the time period when our Constitution was being framed and ratified, summarizes the meaning of the word as follows:

“Agriculture and manufacturing involve the production of goods; commerce encompasses traffic in such articles.”

Now that we understand the meaning of commerce within the context of our Constitution, another important fundamental rule of constitutional law comes into play and is stated as follows:


The fundamental principle of constitutional construction is that effect must be given to the intent of the framers of the organic law and of the people adopting it. This is the polestar in the construction of constitutions, all other principles of construction are only rules or guides to aid in the determination of the intention of the constitution’s framers.(numerous citations omitted) See: 16 Am Jur 2d Constitutional law.(1992 edition), Par. 92. Intent of framers and adopters as controlling.

So, just what was the intended purpose for granting power to Congress to regulate commerce among (not within) the States? A clue establishing the purpose is immediately found in Art. 1, Sec. 9 of the Constitution!

“No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one State, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.”

Indeed, Congress was given the power as it relates to the various states, to insure free trade among the States --- an uninhibited transportation of goods among the states to prevent one state from taxing another state’s goods as they passed through its borders.

We also find confirmation of this purpose in Federalist Paper No. 42 in which Madison states the following with regard to the power in question:

“A very material object of this power was the relief of the States which import and export through other States, from the improper contributions levied on them by the latter. Were these at liberty to regulate the trade between State and State, it must be foreseen that ways would be found out to load the articles of import and export, during the passage through their jurisdiction, with duties which would fall on the makers of the latter and the consumers of the former. We may be assured by past experience, that such a practice would be introduced by future contrivances; and both by that and a common knowledge of human affairs, that it would nourish unceasing animosities, and not improbably terminate in serious interruptions of the public tranquility.”

Additionally, the power to regulate commerce granted to Congress was to also allow Congress to have oversight in a specific and clearly identified area__ a state‘s inspection laws:


“No state shall, without the consent of the Congress, lay any imposts or duties on imports or exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection laws: and the net produce of all duties and imposts, laid by any state on imports or exports, shall be for the use of the treasury of the United States; and all such laws shall be subject to the revision and control of the Congress.” ___ See: Article 1, Section 9, Clause 6

It is sheer insanity to suggest the State Delegates to the Convention of 1787 which framed our Constitution, or the State Legislatures when ratifying the Constitution, intended by the power in question to be authorizing a power to Congress to enter the States to compel the people therein to purchase a product, much less interfere with an individual’s decision making regarding their personal health care needs and choices. And this is why Judge Hudson, in regard to Obamacare and its provision to require individuals to purchase government approved health insurance, found it to be un-constitutional and if allowed to stand would invite an “unbridled exercise of federal police powers.”

While it cannot be reasonably questioned that Congress has power over the transportation of articles as the move among the States, it is nothing short of despotic reasoning for Obama and his progressive gang on Capitol Hill to assert Congress’ power to regulate commerce among the states is intended to and allows the federal government to enter the various states and require the people therein to purchase a particular article of trade favored by Congress.

And why is it despotic reasoning? Because the people have never debated authorizing Congress with power to involve itself in their personal health care needs and choices, and then consenting to such power to be granted to Congress as required under Article V of our Constitution, in which the people’s consent must first be obtained by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, prior to our federal government’s exercise of any new powers.

And what is the feeling of the various states regarding Obamacare? The incontrovertible fact is, 21 states have officially declared their objection to Obamacare which means the requirements of Article V of our Constitution cannot be meet, and thus, Obama, his Justice Department, and our progressive gang on Capitol Hill in pushing forward to impose Obamacare upon the people are acting in defiance of our written Constitution and the documented intentions and beliefs under which it was adopted!

Bottom line is: Health care by consent of the governed (Article 5) our amendment process --- tyranny by a PROGRESSIVE majority vote in Congress!

JWK

"The Constitution is the act of the people, speaking in their original character, and defining the permanent conditions of the social alliance; and there can be no doubt on the point with us, that every act of the legislative power contrary to the true intent and meaning of the Constitution, is absolutely null and void. ___ Chancellor James Kent, in his Commentaries on American Law (1858)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-19-2010, 07:47 AM
 
3,400 posts, read 1,442,097 times
Reputation: 1111
Default Supreme Court has original jurisdiction in Obamacare case

I still have a huge problem understanding why the States who took this to court have not filed in the Supreme Court which has “original jurisdiction” in cases in which a state is party. By not filing in the supreme Court they have allowed various provisions of Obamacare to take effect which in turn gets massive numbers of people dependant upon Obamacare and will give the Court a reason to not strike down Obamacare. Heck, as far as I know the States fighting Obamacare have not even filed for an injunction to put Obamacare on hold while the case is being litigated. Something just does not smell right!

Our Constitution under Article 3, states in crystal clear language:

SECTION 1:

The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish.

SECTION 2

“In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction.”


JWK
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,442,711 times
Reputation: 27720
Key word there is "among" states..interstate commerce.
There's nothing interstate about health insurance since you cannot buy from another state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 11:33 AM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,229 posts, read 17,847,737 times
Reputation: 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Key word there is "among" states..interstate commerce.
There's nothing interstate about health insurance since you cannot buy from another state.
What, you mean a Hospital in Fla cannot purchase Beahm Catheter devices from Calif? Gee, I didn't know that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,442,711 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
What, you mean a Hospital in Fla cannot purchase Beahm Catheter devices from Calif? Gee, I didn't know that.
Health insurance fb..health insurance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,229 posts, read 17,847,737 times
Reputation: 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Health insurance fb..health insurance.
Oh, I see. The cost of med equipment doesn't factor into the cost to deliver care, which doesn't factor into the amount Ins Cos charge customers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,442,711 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida.bob View Post
Oh, I see. The cost of med equipment doesn't factor into the cost to deliver care, which doesn't factor into the amount Ins Cos charge customers.
Deflection.

Health insurance cannot be purchased outside of the state you reside in.
Congress regulates interstate commerce...dealings between states.
Obamacare is about insurance.

I don't see what medical equipment has to do with insurance.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,229 posts, read 17,847,737 times
Reputation: 4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Deflection.

Health insurance cannot be purchased outside of the state you reside in.
Congress regulates interstate commerce...dealings between states.
Obamacare is about insurance.

I don't see what medical equipment has to do with insurance.
It's called commerce.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Texas
5,872 posts, read 8,090,819 times
Reputation: 2971
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
Health insurance fb..health insurance.
You mean to tell me that BCBS of Texas is not a subsidiary of BCBS ND, the corporate parent? The same for United Health, Wellpoint, etc., etc.?

"Interstate commerce", my friend...interstate commerce. Once profits from one subsidiary travel across state lines to be vested or invested through various financial vehicles for profit. There is indeed..."commerce".

WellPoint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NYSE, New York Stock Exchange > Listings > Listings Directory

And how ironic to see who their designated market maker really is. Please, now tell me it's not a completely fixed game.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-19-2010, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,442,711 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by txgolfer130 View Post
You mean to tell me that BCBS of Texas is not a subsidiary of BCBS ND, the corporate parent? The same for United Health, Wellpoint, etc., etc.?

"Interstate commerce", my friend...interstate commerce. Once profits from one subsidiary travel across state lines to be vested or invested through various financial vehicles for profit. There is indeed..."commerce".

WellPoint - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

NYSE, New York Stock Exchange > Listings > Listings Directory

And how ironic to see who their designated market maker really is. Please, now tell me it's not a completely fixed game.
Look closer..they are all "independent"..means you cannot buy outside of your state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:46 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top