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Old 01-17-2011, 09:10 AM
 
Location: Charlotte county, Florida
4,196 posts, read 6,387,971 times
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I dont think the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement compare.

But as the above poster stated about gay marriage I do not agree.
I do think Gays should be able to have civil Partnership if only to protect eachothers Property and assets upon the death of their partner.

I doubt very much that most woman of this day and age would agree at all with the "biblical" sence of what a marriage is.
Alot of it just wont float with a modern woman. Or a modern man.

I also think it's pretty poinless to debate as there will be to many widly differing views on this and nobody will ever agree..

 
Old 01-17-2011, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,307 posts, read 38,676,478 times
Reputation: 7184
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJBest View Post
The concepts of gay rights movement and the black civil rights movement is indeed very comparable. I'd go a step further and say that gay people need to take a a moment and study the civil rights movement if they plan on being successful.
"Strongly disagree"

The gay rights movement is, in many ways, more about convenience and perceived respect and acceptance for a lifestyle.

The civil rights movement was extremely different in scope and was about emergence from actual oppression and actual second class citizenship.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 09:22 AM
Status: "108 N/A" (set 17 days ago)
 
12,886 posts, read 13,560,392 times
Reputation: 9577
Perhaps a better America would stop denying civil rights, privileges and equal treatment to those we don't approve of.
Lets stop cherry picking the Bible for passages that give us an excuse to mistreat one another like we did with African Americans
We have allowed a political system to giveth or take away based not on who we are but what we are. We bow down to a political system that doesn't care if we are a father, son,mother, daughter, brother or sister. We ask it "what am I?"

We can be rich or poor and in between, Black or white and in between, Urban or rural and in between, Child or adult and in between, Legal or illegal and in between, and we can be man or woman and in between.

Maybe one day we can escape our Victorian and Gilded age past and move into a post sexual modern era. Then we can stop having so many political positions based on what is going on in the bed room and focus on what is happening at the Kitchen table

The question frequently ask of abolitionist sympathisers to anti -slavery activist "would you marry a black person?" even old Abe himself had to say although wants to free the slave he would not take one for his wife. White Racist all over America were protecting their Women from Black men while having black women as concubines. The same way some religious leaders and conservative politicians try to protect us from gay men while keeping them as concubines.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
8,307 posts, read 38,676,478 times
Reputation: 7184
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caligula1 View Post
I dont think the civil rights movement and the gay rights movement compare.

But as the above poster stated about gay marriage I do not agree.
I do think Gays should be able to have civil Partnership if only to protect eachothers Property and assets upon the death of their partner.


I doubt very much that most woman of this day and age would agree at all with the "biblical" sence of what a marriage is.
Alot of it just wont float with a modern woman. Or a modern man.
I don't know if state laws make this different or more challenging elsewhere, but the sort of partnership and co-tenancy or tenancy-in-common that you are describing is available under existing laws with existing legal instruments for a gay couple (or any couple) regardless of whether or not they are recognized as married and adoption, while it may not always be easy for pair of unmarried men or a pair of unmarried women, is an option under existing laws - to say nothing of the higher (or lower) technology options for procreation.

Religious aspects aside, I guess I wonder about the reasons for the crusade if it's just to get a marriage certificate.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 09:53 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 6,342,812 times
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The biggest problem with analogy and comparison is as I said rooted in the fact that people think that the comparison has to hold perfectly in order to be valid. This alas serves to derail threads more than it helps them, and it is rarely the fault of the person actually making the comparison.

I imagine the OP started this thread from the frustration of seeing another thread be derailed on a conversation about whether the comparison was valid or not.

It is amazing that most people are not taught in school, during lessons on how their own language works, exactly what the point of comparison and analogy is in conversation. It is not to suggest the two things being compared are the same in every way.

Comparison and analogy are for one thing only: To shed illuminating light on the point the speaker is trying to make. If the comparison or analogy do that then great. If they do not then you should dismiss them and ask the speaker to explain his point another way until such time as you see what it is he is trying to say.

If you find yourself arguing that the analogy is wrong in some way, or that the comparison in some way does not fit perfectly, then it is you… not the person you are arguing against… who has entirely missed the point.

So when I say for example that the things I hear being said about gay partnerships are like what I heard back when the races were not allowed to intermarry… I am not comparing directly gay marriage and inter racial marriage. I am comparing directly some of the reasons given in the attack on both that are almost identical.

The best example to show what I mean is when someone says “I want gays to have the same rights as us” people can reply to this (and often do) by saying “They DO have the same rights as us…. They have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex…. “.

What I point out is that in the history of civil rights around Race that is exactly the same thing that was said then. I would have back then said about the M.Loving case that “I want them to have the same rights as everyone else” and people could have replied then “They do! They both have the rights to marry someone of their own race!”

Pointing out this similarity is useful because most people recognise the silliness of the argument when applied to the latter case… but they miss it when talking about the former case. Showing how similar the two arguments are sheds useful light on the points being made.

In short: Comparison and analogy are very useful tools in our discourse, but their usefulness is diluted all too often by people who will attack the comparison/analogy rather than see it as a linguistic too for illuminating the point actually being made.

As such EVERY comparison is "appropriate" if it serves that end. You can compare some aspect of the gay rights movement to some aspect of hitting a cake with a fish if you can find something within the comparison to illuminate the point you wish to make.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 11:19 AM
 
Location: In a house
5,232 posts, read 8,382,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sautille42 View Post
Comparisons between the contemporary gay rights movement and the American Civil Rights Movement seem to come up quite a lot in public discourse about gay rights. Is this comparison appropriate? Why or why not?

This subject came up on another thread and took on a life of its own, so I thought I should give it its own space - especially as we are currently celebrating MLK day.

What say you?

Nope, not in any way shape or form. A persons race is not a sexual disorder.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 11:31 AM
Status: "108 N/A" (set 17 days ago)
 
12,886 posts, read 13,560,392 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tin Knocker View Post
Nope, not in any way shape or form. A persons race is not a sexual disorder.
We allow people with mental disorders to marry and we don't care about the children of those unions.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 12:20 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,634 posts, read 14,870,054 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Except for the fact that gays were never enslaved, lynched, beaten by cops throughout the nation, denied access to education and the vote, forced to use seperate restaurant, transportation, and restroom faciities, and do not currently suffer from economic hardship and imprisonment at many times the rate of non-gays, and are in fact among the most wealthy and well-educated of our citizenry, the comparison with, and need for, a reprise of black civil rights activism is dead on.

However, given the current infantile feeblemindedness and ignorance which characterizes the majority of Americans, spoon-fed as they are by a manipulative and mendacious mainstream media, the odious and palpably false analogy of the OP continues to gain credence and will probably end with a Matthew Shepard Day holiday. On the Fifth of July, perhaps.


What an insult to African-Americans. In some ways, it is perhaps the ultimate trivialization of their tragic past and troubled present, as they struggle with REAL poverty and injustice.
What nonsense.

Historically Gay people HAVE been beaten by the cops and have been victims of police brutality.

Gay people have been denied access to many educational institutions or expelled from such institutions in the past.

Are you trying to tell us that members of the L/G/B/T community have not experienced discrimination in education, in housing, in public accommodation, in employment and career advancement, in the military, in recognition of their family relationships, etc?

I think you are not aware, and you are uneducated about the reality of oppression and persecution that gay people faced historically.

Last edited by Clark Park; 01-17-2011 at 12:44 PM..
 
Old 01-17-2011, 12:33 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,634 posts, read 14,870,054 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post

The only thing I would add is to call attention to the flawed logic in attempting the apples/oranges comparison between skin color and a lifestyle choice repugnant to most people.
Being gay is NOT a "lifestyle choice." Period.

You can believe anything you want, but you are contradicting the evidence and research of the past 80 years of the scientific and academic communities findings on sexual orientation ... such organizations and institutions as the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Academy of Pediatricians, the National Association of Social Workers, The American Anthropological Association, etc.

The view you have expressed reveals a prejudice against gay people, an opinion you are certainly entitled to, but one that has been thoroughly and completely refuted and repudiated in mainstream research and science.
 
Old 01-17-2011, 12:40 PM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,084 posts, read 14,804,246 times
Reputation: 4040
I do find it interesting to see just how many ways bigots can come up with excuses to deny others their civil rights.
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