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I wonder if you felt that way when they had Stephen Colbert testify before them "in character"?
Here's the bottom line: if you [the collective you] are going to make a claim, you must be able to back it up. Some people here have done so, others have not. What their personal qualifications are, or the qualifications of their personal friends are, is basically irrelevant.
The CDC is an undisputed authority on the statistics as they relate to disease outbreaks, and the source of those outbreaks. Reliable data has been offered that undeniably shows that when vaccination rates in a certain area decrease, the incidences of preventable diseases increase in those areas.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the reason for the decrease in immunization is because the parents believe vaccines are unsafe. Motive is irrelevant to data.
So we have the data that proves that outbreaks of preventable diseases occur as a result of unvaccinated children coming down with the disease, often by traveling outside the U.S. where these diseases are more prevalent due also to lack of immunization, and exposing it to others who are unvaccinated once back here in the U.S. So far, no one has been able to show, with a credible link to a reliable source, that these pockets of outbreaks are a result of anything but un-immunized children.
Given these facts, the question on the table is, should parents who choose not to immunize their children, even if they believe they have the best intentions in the world, be subject to higher insurance premiums because not only are their own children at higher risk for infection, but they pose a higher risk to the community at large?
That's the only question pending.
Too soon to rep you again, so I say . Sensible words, which will be ignored by those who would remain willfully ignorant.
I don't think a doctor should ever be offended if you seek out a second opinion. Is there a pediatric rheumatologist in your town? Find the closest one, and ask for a referral. Arthritis in kids is way beyond the scope of a regular pediatrician if you ask me.
I would second this recommendation. My family has a high incidence of autoimmune disorders, and regular doctors just aren't qualified to manage them. Arthritis in a child is more likely to be autoimmune than osteoarthritis (which is due to wear and tear on joints). A rheumatologist is the proper specialist, and pediatric rheumatologist is preferred over a general rheumatologist.
When you can factual posts then you can claim your opinion is worthy of respect. You asserted that the hep b vaccine should not be given to babies because the hep b is transmitted only via sex and needle contact.
As I wrote you are wrong. One third of all people who get it have no known risk factors. Children and babies are at greatest risk so that's why people vaccinate them. Are you going to take back what you wrote about the disease?
You continue to defend Tenpenny despite the fact that she is wrong and selling garbage. Testimony before Congress is a meaningless credential. She's an anti-vaccine loon not a vaccine safety advocate.
Anyone who thinks you shouldn't be afraid of the flu has obviously never suffered through the flu.
You really should research this subject further if you want to be taken seriously. A part of me is not in favor of penalizing people who don't vaccinate their children but after reading this thread that may be the only way some people will do the right thing and vaccinate.
I will not concede any part of my hep B argument. I will never accept the "Hey everybody, vaccinate your five minute old baby who will only be in close contact with you and family because the same doctors who can't seem explain 1/3 of the cases of hep B are able to all but guarantee that the vaccine injected into your newborn it totally safe as a precaution" logic for the blanket medical recommendation given to everyone - risk factors or no risk factors.
If I had the time to link the resources in retort that support my argument I would gladly do so I could be taken "more seriously" but I can only steal away moments here from my busy family life and there to participate in this forum. I am sure you can appreciate my family values.
For my final thoughts, I just want to check and make sure I follow your logic here. If testimony before congress is a meaningless credential that is saying that congress holds and hearings and calls witness based on zero substance, congressional hearings therefore are a sham. Still going by what you said and applying the logic, since congress is lacking-of-credibility and congress comprises 1/3 of our government and oversees the majority of its operations then that would mean much of the government as a whole also is incompetent and lacks credibility. Now if that is true then the sources that have been touted as gospel which originate from the CDC et al which are government agencies overseen by congress, then they too must lack credibility due to the fact they are overseen by our less-than-credible congress. Doesn't that nullify everything the pro-vaccinators have been using to support their morally superior, fact based stance?
I think I'm out of this one now. You 3 self-proclaimed medical experts and perveyors of the only correct and accurate vaccine facts seemed to have run everyone else off this thread. You win, everyone who disagrees with you is loony and stupid! Way to go! How does it feel to be just sooo right?
By the way in response to the thread question, no parents or individuals should have to pay more for health insurance for not vaccinating, for being over-weight, for smoking or any other legal lifestyle choice. It is a slippery slope that will only end in a loss of personal freedoms.
Last edited by Sights_Set; 01-25-2011 at 07:39 PM..
Reason: wording
I think I'm out of this one now. You 3 self-proclaimed medical experts and perveyors of the only correct and accurate vaccine facts seemed to have run everyone else off this thread. You win, everyone who disagrees with you is loony and stupid! Way to go! How does it feel to be just sooo right?
A bit of an over-reaction. Could you please provide a reputable link detailing in which way vaccines do not work, or are harmful. There was one, the Wakefield study, we now know that was a fraud. If you disagree with vaccines, that's fine, it's your perogative, but you can't just say it's so.
If there is scientific evidence that vaccines are in any way harmful, then there should be no difference in rates between immunized and unimmunized children. If not, then I say yes. Where is the proof to the contrary?
When you completely refuse to admit that the hep b vaccine isn't given because doctors are greedy jerks who want to do the bidding of pharmaceutical companies but because hepatitis b infectition is serious in babies and children . . . it is impossible to take you seriously.
Educate yourself before making statements let alone arguments.
Approximately 90% to 95% of infected adults are able to fight off the virus so their infection is cured. Only about 5% to 10% of adults infected with HBV go on to develop chronic infection. Children are at much higher risk for chronic infection. Up to 90% of infected young children will fail to clear the virus from their bodies and go on to develop chronic infection. About two-thirds of people with chronic HBV infection are chronic carriers. These people do not develop symptoms, even though they harbor the virus and can transmit it to other people.
The hepatitis B vaccine's effectiveness and safety have been rigorously documented: 95% of children and 90% of adults receiving the full 3-dose series develop protective antibodies [6]. Among the 20 million Americans who have received hepatitis B vaccine so far, the most commonly reported side effects are pain at the injection site and mild-to-moderate fever. Anaphylaxis has been reported, with an estimated incidence of 1 per 600,000 doses and no fatalities [6-8]. Immunologic protection against chronic hepatitis B infection persists for at least 12 years after vaccination and may persist even after the antibody is no longer detectable [9-12]. So far, no data support a need for "booster" doses, but research on this point is still being done.
It is morally superior to protect children against the transmission of serious disease. The ignorant arrogance of the anti-vax nuts never ceases to amaze and disgust me. The rest of us should not have to pay for their willfull blindness.
That's not the point, the point is that nurses are not doctors and you continue to try your best to blur that line out of some need that you must have. I don't believe doctors are gods, I don't think nurses are lowly and nothing I said sounds pathetic however your replies which are full of exaggerations and sidesteps are pretty pathetic.
The point is that a dermatologist is not a pediatrician, so the dermatologist takes his/her kids to a pediatrician. A neuro-surgeon is not a maternal/fetal physician, therefore the neuro-surgeon takes herself to one when needed or realizes it's out of his skill set, so he doesn't try to be one, and makes sure his wife gets to when she needs one.
I've got enough physicians in my family and as friends to know that they all have "ideas" about everything they never specialized in. Some get the fact that just because they went to medical school, they don't know it all.
You should see the scar on my nephew's chin b/c his physician parents thought they were plastic surgeons for a few minutes. Another in- the-family physician pretended to be a pediatric gastroenterologist and misdiagnosed one of his kids with celiac's disease....turned out NOT to be the case after he finally took his child to the proper physician.
My spouse has a cousin who went to medical school and went into the research of infectious diseases. Now HE is the one I'd have a conversation with about "to vaccinate or not". Seeing how all 4 of his kids are vaccinated, I think I know where he stands.
So when someone says "my physician friends think this" about something those physician friends don't specialize in....
The point is that a dermatologist is not a pediatrician, so the dermatologist takes his/her kids to a pediatrician. A neuro-surgeon is not a maternal/fetal physician, therefore the neuro-surgeon takes herself to one when needed or realizes it's out of his skill set, so he doesn't try to be one, and makes sure his wife gets to when she needs one.
I've got enough physicians in my family and as friends to know that they all have "ideas" about everything they never specialized in. Some get the fact that just because they went to medical school, they don't know it all.
You should see the scar on my nephew's chin b/c his physician parents thought they were plastic surgeons for a few minutes. Another in- the-family physician pretended to be a pediatric gastroenterologist and misdiagnosed one of his kids with celiac's disease....turned out NOT to be the case after he finally took his child to the proper physician.
My spouse has a cousin who went to medical school and went into the research of infectious diseases. Now HE is the one I'd have a conversation with about "to vaccinate or not". Seeing how all 4 of his kids are vaccinated, I think I know where he stands.
So when someone says "my physician friends think this" about something those physician friends don't specialize in....
A bit of an over-reaction. Could you please provide a reputable link detailing in which way vaccines do not work, or are harmful. There was one, the Wakefield study, we now know that was a fraud. If you disagree with vaccines, that's fine, it's your perogative, but you can't just say it's so.
If there is scientific evidence that vaccines are in any way harmful, then there should be no difference in rates between immunized and unimmunized children. If not, then I say yes. Where is the proof to the contrary?
As I said before, I don't have the luxury of time to search out and post links for you and I kinda hope that someone else will be able to do that. Yes, am aware of the weakness of the Wakefield study and I wouldn't have used his. I do not think all doctors are intentionally trying to injure anyone, I just think they're indoctrinated to think vaccines are more safe than they really are and tend to be unwilling to even consider any information that contradicts what they were taught.
As I said before, if the medical establishment admits there may be issues with adverse reactions, possible autistic links, or links to autoimmune issues later in life then there will be an avalanche of lawsuits. I would love to see more independent studies.
Anecdotally, I work with five different people in my school district who have family members who have had severe reactions to their childhood vaccines within hours (seizures with high fever and brain swelling and one who went into a coma) all with continuing health problems. The only consultation they got from the doctors who initially tried dismiss the vaccines but could find no other cause was the "I'm sorry, a small percentage of children have an adverse reaction to vaccines, your child is just unlucky." Come on now, five people just in the small district I work in? They very sad stories to hear. I have heard so many friend of friend stories over the years, which I do understand is hearsay, it has lead to me to believe that there is a good possibility that the vaccine reactions are under-reported and that there should be a re-evaluation of the vaccine schedule IMO. We're up to 28 -36 recommended vaccination rounds by the age of two! That is just obnoxious to me and a lot of the people I have been talking to about this matter over the last several years are saying the same thing.
Last edited by Sights_Set; 01-25-2011 at 08:59 PM..
Reason: wording
As I said before, I don't have the luxury of time to search out and post links for you and I kinda hope that someone else will be able to do that. Yes, am aware of the weakness of the Wakefield study and I wouldn't have used his. I do not think all doctors are intentionally trying to injure anyone, I just think they're indoctrinated to think vaccines are more safe than they really are and tend to be unwilling to even consider any information that contradicts what they were taught.
As I said before, if the medical establishment admits there may be issues with adverse reactions, possible autistic links, or links to autoimmune issues later in life then there will be an avalanche of lawsuits. I would love to see more independent studies.
Anecdotally, I work with five different people in my school district who have family members who had severe reactions to their childhood vaccines (seizures with high fever and brain swelling and one who went into a coma) all with continuing health problems. The only consultation they got from the doctors who tried their best to discount the vaccines but could find no other cause was the "I'm sorry, a small percentage of children have an adverse reaction to vaccines, your child is just unlucky." Come on now, five people just in the small district I work in? They very sad stories to hear. I have heard so many friend of friend stories over the years, which I do understand is hearsay, it has lead to me to believe that there is a good possibility that the vaccine reactions are under-reported and that there should be a re-evaluation of the vaccine schedule IMO. We're up to 28 -36 recommended vaccination rounds by the age of two! That is just obnoxious to me and a lot of the people I have been talking to about this matter over the last several years.
You know, I did an estimate of how many immunizations our practice gives in a year, and it's about 25,000. In about 6 years of working there (150,0000 immunizations), here's what I've seen:
*Sore arms, very few that were bad enough for the parent to call about
*Red, hot to the touch arms, ditto
*Temperatures for 24-48 hours, unknown number, we prepare clients for this
*Fussiness for 24-48 hours, ditto
*Rashes ~ 10 days after MMR, a couple of calls a month out of maybe 200/month
*A few fainting episodes, mostly from teenagers who had not eaten for many hours
*Sneezing after getting an MMR, 1 child
In addition, I have worked in several public health department immunization clinics over the last 40 years. I have heard of a handful of febrile seizures, but I've seen those from illness as well. I've never seen a kid go into a coma, or have brain swelling.
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. Sensible words, which will be ignored by those who would remain willfully ignorant.
