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To expand on TexasReb's worst case scenario - When my wife and I bought our last car, we made sure it had numerous air bags, adaptive traction control, side impact bracing and we carry auto insurance. Are we paranoid that we will have a car wreck?
Our home is equipped with two different smoke alarm systems. One mandated by building codes and one installed with my home alarm. I keep a fire extinguisher in the kitchen. I carry home owner's insurance that covers loss to fire. Are we paranoid that the house will catch on fire?
My wife does not always dress in a way that is easy to carry a concealed weapon but she still carries pepper spray. Is she paranoid? I'm sure our family friend wasn't "paranoid" wasn't she walked into a Wal-Mart restroom but she was still raped by a man hiding in there. We discussed this. If my wife is in the same situation, she will use every thing at her disposal to not become a victim. Shoot him. Pepper spray him. Heck, even pepper spray herself. It will still impact the attacker when he touches touches.
I don't mind firearms, I hunted as a kid, but there needs to be limits. Handguns should strictly controled or outright banned. Concealment is a big issue. Short barrel weapons and automatic weapons should be banned as well.
It's idiotic to think you need to protect your home. For every old man who protects his house like in this story, there are 10 people who kill themselves and 10 more people who shoot a family member. I'm not even mentionning criminals here, who tend to embark into an arm race with armed populations.
Think about it. How many people are shot in the US? Ok, now why do these stories of home protections get media coverage and the others don't? Because they are so freakishly rare! Most of the shootings that take place do not have happy endings, and you know it. They are so common that they are not even worth reporting about.
People who are against gun control think that life is a video game. I had a few friends who were mugged at gun point. Even if they had the perfect gun with them, they had no way of defending themselves without risking their lives. If someones pulls out a piece in your face out of nowhere, do you think you'll draw faster than the oncoming bullet? Assuming you do, what makes you think you'll hit him? And if you do hit him, what makes you think you'll take him out? Life is not a movie. People don't get thrown into a wall if you shoot them. An adult can still operate a gun and shoot you with a few bullets in him.
The chances that a person use their guns to kill themselves or kill a family member in a passion crime or just have a stupid accident or turn a simple roberry into their own death are A LOT MORE HIGHER than the chances of actually defending themselves in the similar way this old man did.
It's idiotic to think you need to protect your home.
When we say "protect our home" we are not talking about the physical structure (most of the time). We are talking about the inhabitants as well as the feeling of safety that makes a house a home.
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Originally Posted by GeorgeLucasLongLostChin
For every old man who protects his house like in this story, there are 10 people who kill themselves and 10 more people who shoot a family member. I'm not even mentionning criminals here, who tend to embark into an arm race with armed populations.
You stated facts. Back them up. Because if someone wanted to off themselves, a gun is just one of many choices. There are more family assaults during Thanksgiving than any other day and most of those are knife injuries. When is the criminal trying to keep up? Yes, maybe some gangs are trying to get more powerful weapons but the average thug just wants a "piece" to carry. It's not like they can walk into a store and choose one like a law abiding citizen can.
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Originally Posted by GeorgeLucasLongLostChin
Think about it. How many people are shot in the US? Ok, now why do these stories of home protections get media coverage and the others don't? Because they are so freakishly rare!
I didn't think these stories received much attention. In fact they are so rare, there is a site that compiles them to use them for discussions like this. Home*|*The Armed Citizen
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Originally Posted by GeorgeLucasLongLostChin
The chances that a person use their guns to kill themselves or kill a family member in a passion crime or just have a stupid accident or turn a simple roberry into their own death are A LOT MORE HIGHER than the chances of actually defending themselves in the similar way this old man did.
Missed this the first time around. This is a standard "Brady Bunch" anti-gun talking point that has no data backing it up.
Ok, now why do these stories of home protections get media coverage and the others don't? Because they are so freakishly rare! Most of the shootings that take place do not have happy endings, and you know it. They are so common that they are not even worth reporting about.
Problem is they're not so freakishly rare, and most do not result in even a shot being fired, so many are just not news. Here's the armed citizen that among other things aggregates news reports of defensive gun use, the home page lists 10 stories, from Jan 18th to Jan 28th this year, which works out to be one per day, not so freakishly rare. However on a national level, "Homeowner fights of intruders, no one dies" is not a headline that is going to "sell" many issues, it's far more interesting to have "Homeowner and family raped and killed by intruders after failed defense attempt"
In Gary Klecks research he is able to estimate between 800,000 and 2.5 million defensive gun use events per year. The DOJ did their own study and came up with 1.5 million uses per year. Now for who Gary Kleck is here's a page about him, once a staunch gun control advocate (because in his own words it just seemed self evident common sense), his research reversed that position. There are links to his research and papers in the link I've provided about him.
I don't even know where to begin with this one...but will try...
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeLucasLongLostChin
I don't mind firearms, I hunted as a kid, but there needs to be limits. Handguns should strictly controled or outright banned. Concealment is a big issue. Short barrel weapons and automatic weapons should be banned as well.
Ok...fair enough, if that is the way you really feel. BUT? Who enforces the ban? Those allowed to possess short-barrelled and automatic weapons? Who are they? And why should they be allowed the right when the average citizen can't?
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It's idiotic to think you need to protect your home. For every old man who protects his house like in this story, there are 10 people who kill themselves and 10 more people who shoot a family member.
*sighs* Sources, please. Where do you come up with this figure.
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I'm not even mentionning criminals here, who tend to embark into an arm race with armed populations.
Uhhhh...what are you saying here?
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Think about it. How many people are shot in the US? Ok, now why do these stories of home protections get media coverage and the others don't? Because they are so freakishly rare! Most of the shootings that take place do not have happy endings, and you know it. They are so common that they are not even worth reporting about.
Nope. On a national level, you are approaching it from the wrong direction. In fact, the MSM makes a point to gloss over (such as in Pearl, Mississippi, etc) that is was an armed citizen who stopped the rampage.
The reason, on a local level, some of these average citizen cases get high-profile exposure? Is BECAUSE it they have "happy endings". The good guy winning and the bad-guy getting his a$$ shot off and, well, hey, THAT feller ain't gonna do it again..
What is your objection? As it is, an innocent person is more likely to be accidently shot by the police than by an armed citizen (see early post and Kleck studies).
But still, to be fair, give some details about the shootings you are talking about...?
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People who are against gun control think that life is a video game. I had a few friends who were mugged at gun point. Even if they had the perfect gun with them, they had no way of defending themselves without risking their lives. If someones pulls out a piece in your face out of nowhere, do you think you'll draw faster than the oncoming bullet? Assuming you do, what makes you think you'll hit him? And if you do hit him, what makes you think you'll take him out? Life is not a movie. People don't get thrown into a wall if you shoot them. An adult can still operate a gun and shoot you with a few bullets in him.
Would it -- yes or no -- be desirable if they at least had the option?
Geez, it is absolutely pathetic to listen to sickening stuff like this which proceeds from the premise that, in possessing the means to fight back against the criminal element, those who choose to do are the problem.
Hey? What if you are the victim of an armed robbery, and the perps -- after you already give over your money -- decide NOT to leave you alone? Instead? They tell you to go into a back room and lay down on the floor? Two things can happen. They will leave you unharmed...or will shoot you in the back of the head.
Or, what if you were were in a McDonald's, Columbine, Killeen, Texas Lubys, and some nut is killing everyone in sight?
During that time? Maybe images of your kids going thru your head...what do you want...gun control or a gun?
Ah well, whatever. It is perfectly within your right to choose to submit like a helpless rabbit. There are many of us who aren't going to sacrifice our lives to a mathematical abstraction such as you present.
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The chances that a person use their guns to kill themselves or kill a family member in a passion crime or just have a stupid accident or turn a simple roberry into their own death are A LOT MORE HIGHER than the chances of actually defending themselves in the similar way this old man did.
Again, reliable sources to back this up. Not Brady Bunch fiction.
Relax fellas. I'm Canadian so this is really not a hot issue for me. I merely stated my opinion on this issue, which is pretty much a non-issue in the province I live (and pretty much across the country). Most people agree with gun control and push for more. We have more firearms per capita than americans, but there is a strict control on what you can own. We have a lot less deaths by firearms.
Like I said, I don't mind guns. I spent much of my childhood hunting and still do every now and then. Almost everyone owned a firearm in the city I come from. There were a lot of accidents and suicides, but I never saw a handgun or automatic rifle in the hands of someone else than a policeman though. And I think that's how it should be.
You can disagree if you want, but like I said, I think it's idiotic to think that you absolutely need a handgun under your pillow or an automatic rifle to fight off burlgars and that you will shoot them Counter-Strike style.
You can twist statistics as much as you want, but there is one that doesn't lie. The US has more death per capita by firearms than any other industrialized nation. Your people are not special. What is unique are your very loose gun laws.
Relax fellas. I'm Canadian so this is really not a hot issue for me. I merely stated my opinion on this issue, which is pretty much a non-issue in the province I live (and pretty much across the country). Most people agree with gun control and push for more. We have more firearms per capita than americans, but there is a strict control on what you can own. We have a lot less deaths by firearms.
Like I said, I don't mind guns. I spent much of my childhood hunting and still do every now and then. Almost everyone owned a firearm in the city I come from. There were a lot of accidents and suicides, but I never saw a handgun or automatic rifle in the hands of someone else than a policeman though. And I think that's how it should be.
You can disagree if you want, but like I said, I think it's idiotic to think that you absolutely need a handgun under your pillow or an automatic rifle to fight off burlgars and that you will shoot them Counter-Strike style.
You can twist statistics as much as you want, but there is one that doesn't lie. The US has more death per capita by firearms than any other industrialized nation. Your people are not special. What is unique are your very loose gun laws.
You bring up the loose gun laws in the United States and a higher rate of death by firearms? First of all, what countries are being compared? England, Canada, Australia?
Fair enough. BUT...ALL those countries ALWAYS had lower crime rates (firearm related included) than that of the United States. Gun control laws were not put in as crime-control measures. And, thus, their implementation did NOTHING to lower the violent crime rate. Made it worse.
In fact, since it has now become virtually impossible for a law-abiding citizen of England or Australia or Canada to have a weapon for home-defense? Y'alls stranger on stranger street crime/home burglaries/invasions (which is really the main idice of just how dangerous is an area to live) have shot thru the roof. So has gun control worked for you?
In a nut-shell, the per-capita measure, sociopathic street crimes has decreased notably in the United States in those areas where citizens can legally carry a handgun. On the other hand? In your country? It has increased because they can't.
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