Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecking ball
the mccarthy hearings are usually confused, or mentally blended, with the house committee on un-american activities ( HCUA ).
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That much is true.
McCarthy accused Americans in government of being communist spies, while the HCUA accused the Hollywood crowd of either being communists or sympathizing with communists.
Any moron can see that there is a difference between someone in the US government having access to sensitive or classified information and being a communist and hanging out with known communist spies is a threat to national security, while someone who has no access to such information is not a threat.
The HCUA was a vehicle used to co-opt investigations into Soviet spy rings and misdirect them in order to protect the spy rings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecking ball
mccarthy's "list" of communists in the government/military is generally accepted today as complete bull-squishy and an example of extreme political grandstanding.
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Right. A cafeteria worker who is a member of a communist organization that is run by a known communist spy who works at the Soviet Embassy and who has absolutely no education, training or experience in clerical duties or cryptography, and who has only a high school education is suddenly promoted into a clerical position handling sensitive cryptographic codes by someone who is also a member of that communist organization.
Gee, even George Clooney was forced to admit that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrecking ball
mccarthy never released the names on his list ( and the number on the list perpetually zig-zagged ) so there is no way of knowing if there were any communists on his list.
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To which list are you referring?
There were actually 3 separate lists.
The first list is what started this whole thing going. The FBI's security audit revealed 5,283 government employees who were labeled as security risks. What does that mean? You'd have to read the report. I hate to bring Juice into this, but the facts are what they are, and the facts are that there were many Juice in government working in incredibly sensitive positions that had relatives in the Soviet Union, the Eastern Territory (aka East Germany -- the US did not officially recognize the DDR as a country until after the blockade of Berlin in 1974, and even then the US did not really recognize the DDR as a country until 1983), Hungaria, Romania, Bulgaria and elsewhere.
Many of those Juice were also members of communist organizations like the Social Democrat Party and the Young People's Socialist League (those two organizations were later merged and it simply became the Social Democrat Party -- you know them today as neo-conservatives).
Many were members of communist organizations AND had family members (and I don't mean 3rd cousins 15 times removed) living in communist countries.
An example would be Ethel and Julius Rosenberg who were both members of communist parties AND had family members living in communist countries. That saga was running from 1948 until the start of the trial in 1951 and on.
And sorry,
the Rosenbergs really were spies for the Soviet Union.
Because of the potential fallout from political embarrassment, Truman decided not to terminate the employment of those individuals who were security risks as required by federal law, rather he simply shuffled them around to other places in the US government.
An upset FBI agent dismayed at the bureaucracy brought this to the attention of McCarthy.
There were also two other source lists, one from a series of cables between the Soviet Embassy Washington DC and Moscow, and the other from an as yet still unkonwn source (but hopefully will be declassified by the year 2031 -- yes it's Top Secret Cosmic -- just like the Kennedy Assassination files -- and it has a 75 year review period).
What you and others have done is created two different standards, one for criminals and one for spies, whom you apparently don't think are criminals.
We don't need proof to get a search warrant for a criminal, we just need probable cause. However, where spies are concerned, probable cause isn't sufficient for you, rather your require strict proof, which is absurd.
Spy-rings, clandestine organizations (like the CIA, DGSE, MI5/MI6 etc), organized crime syndicates, insurgency, rebel and terrorist groups all have the same basic organizational structure and method of operation, including the same basic organization internal security structures.
To think that an organized crime group is going to stand up and say,
"Here we are! And, as a bonus, here is all the evidence you need to prosecute us!" is obtuse.
Spy-rings are no different. They aren't going to roll over and hand you the goods. You have to go after them, and it is very difficult, and it is even more difficult in the US because of constitutional protections.
However, when we have probable cause, we can make an accusation against a spy just as we would make an accusation against a common criminal (and they are one in the same).
So when the name of General Marshall appears 56 freaking times on communiques between the Soviet Embassy and Moscow, that is probable cause to levy an accusation and to investigate.
Because of the fact that Marshall's name is mentioned 56 freaking times, we can come to one of the following conclusions:
1) General Marshal is a Soviet spy
2) General Marshal is being recruited to be a Soviet spy
3) There is someone very close to General Marshal, an aide, a secretary, a friend, a confidant who has access to Marshal's ear and his desk and his files and notes and telephone conversations etc etc etc.
In any event, all 3 of those things are
wrong. Period.
If Marshal is a spy, he needs to be taken out. If he is being recruited, then he needs to be called out.
And if there is someone on his staff that is telling the Soviets what in the Hell the General
is freaking thinking (vis a vis plans and operations in NATO and Western Europe) and the General is too damn stupid or soft-hearted to weed that person out or take action to stop it, then shame on him.
I guess in fairness I should let people know that I think Marshal was a pig and the man wasn't even worthy enough to shine Patton's shoes.
Anyway, a release of some information from Soviet archives after the Cold War proved that McCarthy was on the right track and was dead on the money on many of the people he called out. One of the disturbing things is that as I mentioned, the Rosenbergs really were Soviet spies, but that they were just the tip of the ice berg. That spy ring continued to operate for many years afterward and they were never discovered.
Was HUAC wrong? Definitely, but then as I also pointed out, the whole function of HUAC was to protect the Soviet spy rings by creating a 3-ring circus to deflect and divert attention from them, and the cost of ruining the lives of people who were no harm or threat to US national security.
There is little doubt they were highly successful, given that neo-cons still run your country through the bureaucracy they have controlled since about 1936 or so.
the HCUA hearings did "out" many people that had been members of the american communist party. my personal favorite being sterling hayden, american hero, great actor and briefly....... a communist. one big problem tho.... it has never been illegal to be a communist in this country. during the depression communism was a moderately popular concept so it's not surprising that in the 1950's the HCUA were able to find people that had been members.[/quote]