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There are reasons for people's behavior. One or two people can "go crazy" and do violence, but when a whole nation is angry, that tells us that there are concrete reasons for the anger which must be addressed.
Peace,
brian
So how do you propose to address this problem? By signing off on another nation's sovereignty, I suppose. If Native Americans rose up in rebellion against the U.S. government, would you hand the whole country over to them, as well? Because they've got a case too.
Ahigherway's post suggests that Muslims hate us because we supported the establishment of the State of Israel. This reason is only a scapegoat, and a bad one at that. One can sit here all day and think of reasons why Muslims extremists would hate us. Anything from US bases in Saudi Arabia to South Park cartoons depicting Mohamed. None of which have anything to do with Israel.
If Israel did not exist, they would look for other reasons to resent us. There is nothing we can do about that.
Isn't there enough room for the followers of Islam in the Arab countries? Why is the total destruction of Israel necessary when Muslims well out number Christians in the Middle East? Is the destruction of the heart of Christianity in Israel the only way that Muslims can be secure in their religion?
Please stay on topic without anti-semetic/Zionist comments. Let's keep this discussion civil please.
It all goes back to the fact that muhammed was a violently anti-semitic thug. He made up a fairy tale of Abraham's line descending through Ishmael instead of Isaac. Ishmael was Abraham's first son through his wife's maidservant. Rather than believe that muhammed was wrong, they have to live by his command to kill the Jews.
After reading many of the responses I may be fighting a lost cause here, but the reason some (by no means all and probably not a majority of) Muslims want to see Israel destroyed is because the country was founded along deeply immoral lines which drove millions of Palestinian Arabs into a forced destitution they remain in today.
Jews were persecuted in Europe under fascist regimes and understandably fled to wherever they could. However those with Zionist intentions fled to Israel where they started buying up land. This caused immense animosity among the indigenous Arab population who saw their country and culture being diluted over a period of a decade or so. Realizing the problems this was causing, Britain (who controlled the country following the collapse of the Ottoman Empire) tried to stop further Jewish immigration to Palestine. Many hundreds of thousands of Jews crossed into Palestine illegally in spite of a massive British effort to try and stop them. To put this into context, there were around 100,000 British troops stationed in Palestine, that is 2/3 of the present day British Army. Jews caught trying to enter Palestine illegally were put into camps, and ships of European Jews were turned around and sent back to where they had come from.
Jewish terrorist organisations (Irgun/Stern Gang) launched a bitter guerilla war against British forces to try and make the British withdraw from Palestine or acquisce to their demands to allow unlimited Jewish immigration to Palestine. This fight went on from 1945 - 1948 by which time the situation had deteriorated to ethnic strife between Jews and Arabs with the British in the middle. Britain, unable to do anything about the situation which was unfolding handed authority of the area to the recently formed United Nations in 1948. The UN solution proposed a small Jewish state (sometimes called the 1948 borders) to try and end the fighting between Arabs and Jews. The Jews accepted this and declared their sovereignty but the Arabs rejected it. It should be understood that hundreds of thousands of Arabs had fled their homes during the violence, and they didn't want to give up their homes which would have fallen within the proposed Israeli state.
Arab countries sent armies to try and re-take Palestine but they lost the military fight. They didn't recognise Israel as a legitimate country at that point and most don't to this day. Several Arab powers attempted to retake Palestine in subsequent decades, but due to Cold War diplomacy, Israel was militarily backed by the West and had superior Western equipment while the Arab Countries used inferior Soviet equipment and weren't organised as well as the Israeli's. In the ensuing conflicts the Israeli's took over more land (most notably the West Bank and Gaza Strip) and they have been "colonising" these bits of land against International Law ever since. Israeli actions are designed to try and force Palestinians into leading such an miserable life that they leave their homes and the Israeli strategy is designed to gradually take over more and more Palestinian land so that when the crunch time comes, they can say that more than 50% of the population of these areas are populated by Jews.
This has enraged feelings in the Muslim world, in exactly the same way it would in the USA if a large group of foreigners immigrated illegally to New York and Washington, fought with the locals and declared themselves an independent country, driving out most of the Americans from their homes and refusing them the right of return or adequate compensation.
These quotations from the Qu'ran about killing the unbelievers have nothing to do with the situation in Israel. Muslims do not want to kill the unbelievers, Muslims are not some deviant branch of the human race who have been brainwashed into bizarre behaviour by a mystical holy book. Those who call for the destruction of Israel are not calling for the slaughter of every man, woman and child, they want Israeli's to be shipped back to their countries of origin and the Palestinians to be allowed to return to their homes.
Even that doesn't reflect the majority of Muslim opinion which favours a two state solution. However the stumbling blocks for a two state solution are many, namely that Israel refuses to withdraw from its illegal settlements in the West Bank, Israel has diverted water supplies to its own settlements and away from Palestinian lands and refuses to undo this, Israel refuses to compensate the Palestinians who have lost their homes to the Israeli military since 1948, Israel refuses the right of return for hundreds of thousands if not millions of displaced Palestinians, Israel refuses to set its own borders on a map leading many to suspect they have ambitions beyond their current placement and Israel insists on blockading the Gaza strip preventing adequate food and medical care to the people there leading to the Palestinians living on the brink of perpetual anarchy.
Before taking any view on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict it is vital to know a bit of history about the conflict, because ultimately the Palestinians have a point.
Eoin
Bravo Eoin! At last someone understands the TRUE history of the conflict.
Please forgive my bluntness but as an American (I presume?) do you not feel like you're missing the forest for some trees? Your country has gone out of its way to remove democratically elected and popular Governments accross the world. For example in Chile where the CIA provided funds and undisclosed levels of support for a military coup against the democratically elected leader Salvador Allende. He was replaced by General Pinochet who is reknowned the world over for his torture chambers. Or what about the orchestrated effort to remove Dr Mohammad Mosaddegh, the democratically elected leader of Iran and the subsequent support for the universally reviled Shah? (Who coincidentally enough is reknowned the world over for his torture chambers.) Or what about US support for Saddam Hussein's invasion of Iran after the Islamic Revolution, when Donald Rumsfeld visited Saddam and gave him satellite imagery, economic aid and encouragement in the war, contributing to the third bloodiest conflict of the 20th Century. Saddam Hussein was of course reknowned the world over for his torture chambers. Spotting a trend here! Or what about Pakistan more recently when the US backed General Musharraf with moral support and huge economic aid while at the same he refused to permit elections against the wishes of the pro-democratic movement in Pakistan. (You'll be surprised enough to know that Musharraf is synonymous with his torture chambers.)
That's just for starters. In Nicuragua, Venezuela, Bolivia, Vietnam, Cuba, El Savador, Somalia and Grenada (by no means an exhaustive list, just off the top of my head) the US has employed a multitude of violent and underhanded measures to depose or otherwise affect a change in leadership which is either ambivolent to, or against the wishes of the population of those countries.
I'm not going on an anti-American rant here, I'd be deluded to think that my own country was any better when it was foremost in the world. I'm British and I'm well aware of the back-stabbing, double-dealing, imperialist and self-serving political history of my own country. However because I'm acutely aware of this history, I would not make a remark like, "It is their [Muslims] holy mission in life to overtake all others to suppression by any and all means (violence, sneakiness, making demands, fear)." I would not make such a statement because I am myself from a country which has done exactly that. Given that your country has behaved in this manner on a wide scale for decades, and furthermore has behaved in this manner towards the very people (Muslims) you are condemning, your point (which I'm not confident is theologically valid) comes accross as highly diluted.
So how do you propose to address this problem? By signing off on another nation's sovereignty, I suppose. If Native Americans rose up in rebellion against the U.S. government, would you hand the whole country over to them, as well? Because they've got a case too.
It's interesting to note the parallel between America's history of pushing out the native peoples, and Israel's same history.
What I'm saying is, first give the Palestinians their land, and don't allow Israel to take them away. Israel needs to respect the Palestinians. (After all, they are brothers from a certain "genetic" point of view!)
Then begin on a road to discuss and work towards resolving other grievances which have built up over the last 60 years. (And maybe stop arming Israel, too.) The Palestinians and Jews lived in relative peace before Israel was created. That is an important element to remember and work back to. Imo.
Ahigherway's post suggests that Muslims hate us because we supported the establishment of the State of Israel. This reason is only a scapegoat, and a bad one at that. One can sit here all day and think of reasons why Muslims extremists would hate us. Anything from US bases in Saudi Arabia to South Park cartoons depicting Mohamed. None of which have anything to do with Israel.
If Israel did not exist, they would look for other reasons to resent us. There is nothing we can do about that.
My point is, that the Muslims didn't always hate the US like they have in the last 60 years. Israel isn't an amusement park. If you learn about what is going on there, I think you'll agree that it's enough to make a person righteously indignant. (Please note that I do not "endorse" or "justify" any type of violence whatsoever, on either side. I'm only saying that before we can know what Muslims abroad think of the US, we need to treat them with respect, like we treat them in the US.)
Lastly, the Muslim extremists are a minority, just like the Christian Zionist radicals in the US who can't wait for Israel to nuke Iran. -Same dish, different flavor.
It's interesting to note the parallel between America's history of pushing out the native peoples, and Israel's same history.
What I'm saying is, first give the Palestinians their land, and don't allow Israel to take them away. Israel needs to respect the Palestinians. (After all, they are brothers from a certain "genetic" point of view!)
Then begin on a road to discuss and work towards resolving other grievances which have built up over the last 60 years. (And maybe stop arming Israel, too.) The Palestinians and Jews lived in relative peace before Israel was created. That is an important element to remember and work back to. Imo.
Peace,
brian
We're coming back to the same points discussed in other threads. It is wrong to compare Palestinians to Native Americans. When Native Americans came to North America there were no others. The same cannot be said of the Arabs who conquered Palestine, and indeed the rest of the Middle East. Add that to the fact that many Arabs who call themselves Palestinians are descendants of Arab immigrants from other countries during British and Turkish rule.
Regarding the second part of your post, prior to the establishment of Israel, Jews were Palestinians. "Palestinian" would have described anyone living in the British territory of Palestine. The Jerusalem Post, a Jewish newspaper, was called Palestine Post.
Anyway the Jews and Arabs were fighting well before the creation of the state.
We're coming back to the same points discussed in other threads. It is wrong to compare Palestinians to Native Americans. When Native Americans came to North America there were no others. The same cannot be said of the Arabs who conquered Palestine, and indeed the rest of the Middle East. Add that to the fact that many Arabs who call themselves Palestinians are descendants of Arab immigrants from other countries during British and Turkish rule.
Regarding the second part of your post, prior to the establishment of Israel, Jews were Palestinians. "Palestinian" would have described anyone living in the British territory of Palestine. The Jerusalem Post, a Jewish newspaper, was called Palestine Post.
Anyway the Jews and Arabs were fighting well before the creation of the state.
Personally, I think the comparison is apt. The conflict in the Middle East, if you stop and think about it, is pathetic. They are fighting about what they consider to be "their land" based on a book they consider to be holy. No book, no war.
Furthermore, if you look closely, you will see that much of modern Israel is secular. But that is a complete contradiction in terms! That would be like making a "secular mecca!" It makes no sense. If you are a Jew, then you ought to follow the Torah (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, etc). It's pretty basic stuff, but they don't do it, because they're not interested in it! They only want to take the land from the Palestinians and oppress them. (Not all Jews, of course; I am referring to the Zionists.)
And although there has always been fighting throughout history between Jews and Muslims, we can say the same thing regarding Christians and Muslims. -Should we kick the Mexicans out of Mexico to make a "safe haven" for the Christians????!??!?!?
Peace,
brian
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