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Old 02-14-2011, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Imaginary Figment
11,449 posts, read 14,444,835 times
Reputation: 4777

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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
GM repays U.S. loan, government loss on bailout falls | Reuters
GM completed the repayment of its loans from the U.S. and Canadian governments by paying the outstanding balances of $4.7 billion and $1.1 billion respectively.

Don't let the facts bother you!

Out of $4k, the line workers probably pocket $2,500.
The truth is, and always has been irrelevant to these types. They will argue against anything they've dreamed up, from Socialism to bail outs that were never paid back.
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Old 02-14-2011, 04:46 PM
 
1,777 posts, read 1,400,399 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
It does change it in that although millions (although probably less) would have lost jobs. They would have found employment in the ashes of what was left behind.
So are you suggesting that all the former Lehman workers, the former Washington Mutual bankers, the Countrywide people, have all "found employment in the ashes of what was left behind?" You do know what the current unemployment rate is, right? Do you think it would be better today had one of the largest corporations in the country liquidated? Do you think that if GM had liquidated, that it would have stopped there?

Quote:
So now the country is close to losing its triple A status due to huge debt, which this deal contributed. So we are looking at a quick death or a potential slow death. Admitedly the auto workers bailout looks much better now. I am still concerned with the future.
I agree with you that our large national debt is a major concern. The current budget deficit is unsustainable in even the medium term, and both parties have been cowardly in their approach to cutting the deficit. I am concerned with our fiscal future as well; however, a liquidated GM would have sparked an even worse economic disaster than we've experienced.

Quote:
Yeah, the moral hazard was on the part of the UAW, the group that contributed greatly with tanking the company and rewarded with an ownwership interest.There is nothing preventing stupid management GM and union) decisions, as at least some, see this move.
So far it appears that NewGM has been doing pretty well, considering the profits it's been able to make in the last couple of quarters. You are right that stupid management decisions may happen, but I haven't seen any reports to suggest that they're making bad decisions now (and I'm not at all convinced that giving bonuses to line workers is a bad management decision in this context).

I'm glad that we can disagree without being disagreeable. That happens too rarely here.
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,890 posts, read 18,724,423 times
Reputation: 3146
Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
So are you suggesting that all the former Lehman workers, the former Washington Mutual bankers, the Countrywide people, have all "found employment in the ashes of what was left behind?" You do know what the current unemployment rate is, right? Do you think it would be better today had one of the largest corporations in the country liquidated? Do you think that if GM had liquidated, that it would have stopped there?
I am aware of the current unemployment rate, as I am sure you are aware the debt is weighing on that. I have no idea if all Lehman, Wa MU, or countrywide people have found employment yet. I can assure you they will not be unemployed for the rest of their lives. You some how think if GM went chapter 11 it would cease to exists, that isn't the case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
agree with you that our large national debt is a major concern. The current budget deficit is unsustainable in even the medium term, and both parties have been cowardly in their approach to cutting the deficit. I am concerned with our fiscal future as well; however, a liquidated GM would have sparked an even worse economic disaster than we've experienced.

Again, you mistake chapter 11 for liquidation. Many companies enter chapter 11 and come out fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
So far it appears that NewGM has been doing pretty well, considering the profits it's been able to make in the last couple of quarters. You are right that stupid management decisions may happen, but I haven't seen any reports to suggest that they're making bad decisions now (and I'm not at all convinced that giving bonuses to line workers is a bad management decision in this context).
I agree GM seems to be doing well, but again there are no safeguards in place to prevent the union from raiding the piggy bank again. I think at this point the size of the bonuses were worse than the fact of the bonuses. Some will get 50%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
I'm glad that we can disagree without being disagreeable. That happens too rarely here,
I agree
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:05 PM
 
1,777 posts, read 1,400,399 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
You some how think if GM went chapter 11 it would cease to exists, that isn't the case.
I certainly know that big companies go into and out of Chapter 11 all the time. GM is one example of that. The difference with GM was that in its Chapter 11 case, there was no other competing buyer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
Again, you mistake chapter 11 for liquidation. Many companies enter chapter 11 and come out fine.
All parties in interest, creditors and equity holders alike, to the GM bankruptcy case conceded that the Treasury was the only entity that had a reorganization plan that did not involve liqudiation. GM would not have come out fine had the government not made a major equity purchase.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
I certainly know that big companies go into and out of Chapter 11 all the time. GM is one example of that. The difference with GM was that in its Chapter 11 case, there was no other competing buyer.




All parties in interest, creditors and equity holders alike, to the GM bankruptcy case conceded that the Treasury was the only entity that had a reorganization plan that did not involve liqudiation. GM would not have come out fine had the government not made a major equity purchase.
That's Chap 7 bankruptcy.
Chap 11 lets them restructure debt and continue doing business.

What are the differences between chapter 7 and chapter 11 bankruptcy?

Chap 7 is liquidation bankruptcy. The company goes out of business.
Chap 11 is a debt reorganization bankruptcy. They continue doing business.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,890 posts, read 18,724,423 times
Reputation: 3146
Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
I certainly know that big companies go into and out of Chapter 11 all the time. GM is one example of that. The difference with GM was that in its Chapter 11 case, there was no other competing buyer.
No buyer is required in Chapter 11, a bankruptcy jugde could have put them under creditor protection.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bc42gb43 View Post
All parties in interest, creditors and equity holders alike, to the GM bankruptcy case conceded that the Treasury was the only entity that had a reorganization plan that did not involve liqudiation. GM would not have come out fine had the government not made a major equity purchase.

Not all parties, share holders and bond holders most certainly were against it. The UAW was favored over other creditors, clearly political. The US government was the only organization that could have circumvented the court process.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
7,545 posts, read 8,312,931 times
Reputation: 2888
GM should not be handing out bonuses to anyone until it buys back the US Government's interest in their corporation. As long as the taxpayers still own a portion of GM, they shouldn't be doling out bonuses to anyone. Any profits should go towards decreasing the government's equity in GM first and foremost.

If GM is truly "profit sharing", why don't the taxpayers reap some dividends then since we are the stockholders?
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
GM should not be handing out bonuses to anyone until it buys back the US Government's interest in their corporation. As long as the taxpayers still own a portion of GM, they shouldn't be doling out bonuses to anyone. Any profits should go towards decreasing the government's equity in GM first and foremost.

If GM is truly "profit sharing", why don't the taxpayers reap some dividends then since we are the stockholders?
That was not the deal. The USG sold some with the IPO.
And they'll sell the rest hopefully not at a loss.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Land of debt and Corruption
7,545 posts, read 8,312,931 times
Reputation: 2888
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
That was not the deal. The USG sold some with the IPO.
And they'll sell the rest hopefully not at a loss.
I know that wasn't the deal Obama crafted with GM. He basically gave them billions in taxpayer money with zero strings attached. I'm just pointing out what *should* have happened.

Must be nice to be on the "favored" list.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:36 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatyousay View Post
I know that wasn't the deal Obama crafted with GM. He basically gave them billions in taxpayer money with zero strings attached. I'm just pointing out what *should* have happened.

Must be nice to be on the "favored" list.
It sure is a shame. Schools all across the US are cutting their budgets.
The Fed cannot help them because they helped the banksters on Wall Street, the looser mortgage makers and our favorite car manufacturer.

Kids will have no teachers but the UAW lives on.
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