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Old 12-31-2013, 10:58 PM
 
56,989 posts, read 35,116,741 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
David Ortiz :




Didi Grogorius :
Forget it....the guy just can't be helped.
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles County, CA
29,095 posts, read 25,956,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
NO, Phelps is also great because he is at the high end of the genetic lottery. Same thing holds true in swimming as it does in running. One major difference is that compared to sprinting, swimming is very technique driven. In essence, a person who wants to excel at swimming has to have the raw talent but must be able to be very efficient in the water in a way that is not required in sprinting.
Uh... you know very little about sprinting.

Efficiency is imperative at all distances on the track, and probably most important in the 100, where tenths of a second matter.
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma
17,702 posts, read 13,559,539 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
No one mentioned the Japanese, who have done quite well in recent Olympic sprinting, as a team.

.
This isn't true at all. The japanese have never had a finish in the top 8 in the mens final in the 100m in the history of the olympics. In the last 7 Olympics, every single finalist has been of west african descent.

As for the rest of your diatribes about extrapolating these physical attributes to intelligence or anything else nothing could be further from the truth.

Sprinting is a simple foundational component of human athletic performance. We know what traits all great sprinters possess in terms of their physiology. No matter what ethnic group the best sprinters generally have the same profile, however we find that among west africans we see the most dominant profiles and we see them more often among the general population.

To extrapolate beyond simple basic athletic tasks becomes more problematic because the requirements to be elite in said sport become more complex, and multifactorial. To make the jump to raw "intelligence" is even more problematic because we can't even define what intelligence "is" and we have a harder time doing anything but surveying whatever it is.

For instance, I can take a chunk of your leg muscle and study your fiber type and enzyme profile. If you are a world class sprinter I will see a certain profile. I can't take a chunk of your brain and examine it for the basic mechanistic things that make up intelligence. Perhaps some day we will be able to do so.





I

Last edited by eddie gein; 12-31-2013 at 11:33 PM..
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,645 posts, read 38,586,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CinSonic View Post
6 or 8% black i think was the last percentage. if thats heavily black
just look at the dbacks. didi is one of forty.
You are being obtuse on purpose, I can see that. The 6 to 8 percent is the African American percentage. The Afro-Latino percentage is much higher and puts blacks at about 35-40% of Major League players.
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:22 AM
 
Location: Jamestown, NY
7,840 posts, read 9,170,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzy jeff View Post
For all intensive purposes, when we talk blacks in American sports we are talking African American, not black Latino's. Black makeup in pro sports here in America is approx 75 percent in the NBA, 67 percent in the NFL, and only about 9 percent in MLB.

On the topic of Hockey, it is a much more expensive sport to play then the others. Here in my area it costs a HS student playing hockey about 5 to 6 grand a year. Much of that is a contribution towards what the schools pay for ice time.

Black athletes tend to follow the money. In the case of baseball when a player is drafted out of HS they have about a 1 in 15 shot to ever get to the majors. A basketball or footbal playerl at a D1 University in most cases gets a free education even if they do not go onto the pros. Very few college baseball players get a full ride.
This has historically been true in the US with various ethnic/racial groups. Sports has been a way for males from poor/discriminated against ethnic/racial groups to climb the economic ladder. At one time the Irish dominated boxing. Italians dominated baseball back in the 1940s and 1950s much like Latinos do today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Jamaicans won 3 medals (one gold) in 1952 Olympics and FIVE medals 2 gold( in 1956. Pretty sure that these were in track. The reason why Jamaicans began to get scholarships from US colleges is because Jamaica had developed a solid roster of talent at the high school level and US colleges began to notice this.

Jamaicans do well because they take track very seriously. And they have now developed their own coaching talent so rely less on US training. The very talented Usain Bolt never had US training, and few of the more recent champions have had either.

So its not because the Jamaican is some "animal" with a body to run. No they train seriously which is why they beat just about every group if West Africans in track.

Note that Cuba has a large West African descended population, yet do poorly in the sprints. Some might argue that this is because their athletes are much more diverse in the range of sports that they are engaged in, so with less of a single focus on track they don't produce the talent that Jamaica does. Brazil has the second largest West African descended population behind the USA (depending on how you define this) and yet doesn't do well in the traditional black Olympic sports. Yes it does well in football but many of their players are so mixed that to attribute their skill to West/Central African ancestry is a stretch. Again they play a broader range of sports so less single focused. Indeed blacks from Latin America (and there are more of them than from anywhere outside of Africa) are outside of this conversation. European players do well in football so one cannot say that it is black dominated.

Maybe white American males just aren't interested in sports outside of niche activities. In the Olympics they only dominate swimming, while their European counterparts have a wider range of success.

Note also that white South African, who despite his disability, beat many of West African descent to get to the semi finals in the last Olympics.


I mean does any one claim that Michael Phelps wins Olympics because whites of northern European descent have a natural body to win in swimming. NO! They credit his hard work and his talent.
I agree. Lots of people have talent but it takes training and perseverance to develop it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
No one said training is not a contributing factor. The point is with equal training west africans have better results except in marathon where east africans dominate.
Except it's NOT all "east africans" that dominate in long distance running. It's primarily the Kenyans and Ethiopians, who live and train in high altitudes who are the famous distance runners.

Of course there's a physical component to athletic success. White or black, if you're 5'7 you probably don't have much chance of an NBA career, and yes, long distance runners tend to have different physiques from sprinters, but you see those same physiques in many ethnic/groups.
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Old 01-01-2014, 01:06 AM
 
Location: USA
30,741 posts, read 21,872,773 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda_d View Post
This has historically been true in the US with various ethnic/racial groups. Sports has been a way for males from poor/discriminated against ethnic/racial groups to climb the economic ladder. At one time the Irish dominated boxing. Italians dominated baseball back in the 1940s and 1950s much like Latinos do today.



I agree. Lots of people have talent but it takes training and perseverance to develop it.



Except it's NOT all "east africans" that dominate in long distance running. It's primarily the Kenyans and Ethiopians, who live and train in high altitudes who are the famous distance runners.

Of course there's a physical component to athletic success. White or black, if you're 5'7 you probably don't have much chance of an NBA career, and yes, long distance runners tend to have different physiques from sprinters, but you see those same physiques in many ethnic/groups.
Touche'. And if you cultivated and trained those with similar traits from all over the globe you would have a much more varied group then what we have seen in the past. Russian and now Chinese Athletes now are a good example of this.
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:29 AM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,676,336 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
NO, Phelps is also great because he is at the high end of the genetic lottery. Same thing holds true in swimming as it does in running. One major difference is that compared to sprinting, swimming is very technique driven. In essence, a person who wants to excel at swimming has to have the raw talent but must be able to be very efficient in the water in a way that is not required in sprinting.

Swimming though is more sociology driven because of the fact that few western africans participate in swimming at the early ages it takes to acquire these skills. Nevertheless, western africans have shown to have greater than average bone to muscle average in their lean body mass that have required exercise scientists to have to account for race in the equations they use for body composition assessment. This great bone to lean muscle tissue makes western african bone density to be greater than that of the typical northern european. Increased bone density is a disadvantage in swimming.

Bones in different races
You obviously do not know much about sprint training. Its VERY technique driven. Finding the proper balance between stride length and stride frequency, while using ones arms to balance and drive the legs, creating the proper angles in elbows and knees, maintaining proper posture, drive phase dynamics vs top speed dynamics, running on the balls of your feet, striking the ground directly below ones center of mass.......is all about technique.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-01-2014 at 08:53 AM..
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:35 AM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,676,336 times
Reputation: 5243
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie gein View Post
This isn't true at all. The japanese have never had a finish in the top 8 in the mens final in the 100m in the history of the olympics. In the last 7 Olympics, every single finalist has been of west african descent.

As for the rest of your diatribes about extrapolating these physical attributes to intelligence or anything else nothing could be further from the truth.

Sprinting is a simple foundational component of human athletic performance. We know what traits all great sprinters possess in terms of their physiology. No matter what ethnic group the best sprinters generally have the same profile, however we find that among west africans we see the most dominant profiles and we see them more often among the general population.

To extrapolate beyond simple basic athletic tasks becomes more problematic because the requirements to be elite in said sport become more complex, and multifactorial. To make the jump to raw "intelligence" is even more problematic because we can't even define what intelligence "is" and we have a harder time doing anything but surveying whatever it is.

For instance, I can take a chunk of your leg muscle and study your fiber type and enzyme profile. If you are a world class sprinter I will see a certain profile. I can't take a chunk of your brain and examine it for the basic mechanistic things that make up intelligence. Perhaps some day we will be able to do so.





I
Japans 4 x 100 meter relay team finished 5th IN THE WORLD in the 2012 Olympics!!! That was ahead of NIGERIA....wait for it...... A WEST AFRICAN NATION FULL OF 170 million WEST AFRICANS!!!!

4x100m relay men

Also...

Yoshihide KIRYU aged 17 clocked 10.01 (+0.9m/s) 100m Junior World Record - YouTube


PS.... and the rest of my diatribe was just as true. Excuse me for TEACHING while you were interrupting. I talk about what I KNOW about. You will not see me post anything that cannot be backed up.

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-01-2014 at 08:54 AM..
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Old 01-01-2014, 09:17 AM
 
2,182 posts, read 1,376,154 times
Reputation: 2346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
Japans 4 x 100 meter relay team finished 5th IN THE WORLD in the 2012 Olympics!!! That was ahead of NIGERIA....wait for it...... A WEST AFRICAN NATION FULL OF 170 million WEST AFRICANS!!!!

4x100m relay men

Also...


Yoshihide KIRYU aged 17 clocked 10.01 (+0.9m/s) 100m Junior World Record - YouTube


PS.... and the rest of my diatribe was just as true. Excuse me for TEACHING while you were interrupting. I talk about what I KNOW about. You will not see me post anything that cannot be backed up.
One Japanese team in olympics history finished 5TH and you take that as an argument. I cannot believe you are being sincere at all. You remind me of those feminists who will argue that women have the same physical abilities than men and will cite you a few female athletes whose results could compare to men's results.

People have told you muliple times : just being black wont make you a great athlete, however blacks typically have better performance. On AVERAGE. Dammit !
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:41 AM
 
13,806 posts, read 9,676,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorel36 View Post
One Japanese team in olympics history finished 5TH and you take that as an argument. I cannot believe you are being sincere at all. You remind me of those feminists who will argue that women have the same physical abilities than men and will cite you a few female athletes whose results could compare to men's results.

People have told you muliple times : just being black wont make you a great athlete, however blacks typically have better performance. On AVERAGE. Dammit !
Every trend has a starting point. The Japanese are just starting to really develop training programs for youth. The more they see the success of other Japanese, including the 17 year old WHO HOLDS THE JUNIOR WORLD RECORD, more Japanese youth will believe that Japanese/Asian people can compete at the world class level.

Being ON TOP does not mean you will always be on top. Civilization developed in Mesopotamia and was flourishing while Europeans were living primitive in caves. Later, Europeans would rule the world and would reign at the top of human modernity. The point being that just because a particular group dominates, its does not mean that the dominance if for eternity or the function of some sort of genetic superiority.

Do the West African lineage people currently dominant the sprint events....on average? Yes! However, is that the result of genetics or the self fulfilling prophecy of expectations and stereotypes steering this dominance? Hell, why does the south dominate in football talent for black athletes? Yes, a slight majority of blacks in the country live in the south, but a much higher percentage of black athletes from the south dominate football. The reason being is the emphasis that southern culture places on the sport of football, relative to other areas, say in the Northeast part of the USA, where basketball, because of space issues, leads to a higher per capita rate of great basketball players.

The thing is that black people place a lot more concentrated effort towards a few sports and society promotes and believes that blacks are "gifted" for these venues and hence it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Blacks see black people finding success in an area of high profile and then they begin to believe that they can do it to and that it is a path to a better life. At one point in time Flint Michigan was likely producing more basketball talent, per capita, than, arguably, any other city in America. If a person was from Flint, you just assumed they could hoop. That became the cities reputation and from an early age black Flint youth were conditioned to play ball. See the documentary Flint Town Kids. Listen to the "mindset" that created this.


Flint Town Kids Documentary - YouTube


The same thing holds for violence. Once a hood or city gets a reputation of being "hard" and notorious...it because a self fulfilling prophecy. People start living up to that reputation for the respect granted in the streets from being from a certain hood or city. When you grow up in those hoods and cities the older cats groom you to "Represent"....to take no "slit" because you from ____.

I have no doubt in my mind, understanding human nature as I do, that once the Japanese see success.....they will start believing in themselves and put more effort into training youth in sprinting and hence they will find more success. Now the city of Flint is known for violence, as its the murder capital of America.....and I cannot think of the most recent impact ball player from that city.

Its all about what you believe, expectations and reputations. Its all self fulfilling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIjrxyh4vos

Last edited by Indentured Servant; 01-01-2014 at 11:02 AM..
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