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Here's a question asked in the op--- "Do you think women are taking too little responsibility to decrease their chances of being raped?"
See the words "decrease their chances" ?
Obviously, many rapes can't be avoided and there is no practical way to Decrease Risk.
OTOH, as RAINN and others emphasize, there are ways to Reduce Risk. Don't go home with a guy you met at a bar. Park in a well-traveled area. Be cautious early in a dating relationship.
If you choose to take the attitude that Reducing Risk isn't worth the effort or degrades your humanity, then choose to increase the risk of becoming a rape survivor.
I completely get decrease your chances, but their has been mention made of women wearing certain clothing or behaving "loosely". Neither of which will "decrease" or "increase" your chances. Your chance depends on the offender, not the victim.
However, if one does not park in a well traveled area, they are in no way asking for it.
It is so worth the effort to protect yourself. And no, I never said it degrades your humanity. The only degrading of humanity are those that claim a woman asks for it.
The question raised regarding reducing real risk; In my opinion one of the big issues is men taking a REAL stand against it. If men in a frat house see one of their friends dragging a barely conscious woman to their room, stop them, and make sure she gets home safely. If men in the military are aware of their peers partaking in sexual assaults, report it. If their buddies in the bar are bragging about shady sexual exploits, speak up.
Many men are aware of their friends and aquaintances engaging in non-consensual sex, and if you really and truly mean what you say, then speak up and advocate against this atrocity.
I started getting new rep points from this thread. I guess it lives again. Sigh... Many of the same people, too, who adamently believe they are correct despite the ample evidence against them on this very thread.
I'll just add this:
It is patently devious to attack people who are reiterating RAINN's Sexual Assault Prevention guidelines (Ways to Reduce your Risk of Sexual Assault | RAINN | Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network) by arguing that since people get raped in their homes or when they are elderly that we should just give up any preventative measures on the assumption that all criminals are equal opportunity offenders. Criminals obsessed with power are usually weak people looking for opportunity.
By the logic used by others, we should never take precautions against being held up at gunpoint on the street or in a club because there are horrible instances where one spouse shoots another in their home or someone breaks in, despite having doors locked.
My prayers are with those who have been attacked in any circumstance, but I will teach my daughter how to minimize the chances of such damage, even if there are circumstances where the brutality of a deranged criminal or a friend could trump even the most vigilant efforts. If, God forbid, something happens, it will remain the fault of the perpetrator. But minimizing the risk of that happening has nothing to do with patriarchy or feminism or any other sociopolitical spin.
This.
I was sexually abused as a child. It's over 13 years later now, and I'm still just barely scratching the crux of the problem. There's no changing that.
And Toyman At Jewel Lake keeps putting a lot of pressure on fighting back and saying no. Sometimes that isn't possible. Just because physically you can make the noise "no" doesn't mean that emotionally you can do it. A few weeks ago I was in a cuddle puddle and everyone had left except for me and a dude I didn't know that well. He started cuddling me, lips on my neck, hand up my shirt. Everything in me was screaming to say no, to run, to leave. I couldn't. I shut down. I'm incredibly grateful nothing serious happened that night but I still have to acknowledge that for some people that isn't always the case. Some people can't say no and it does happen. What's your advice to them?
I'm sorry, but if you're putting yourself in intimate, body-on-body contact with near strangers in a "cuddle puddle", you are not reducing your risk of being attacked. That is wreckless behavior considering many men - deranged or not - will mistakenly interpret your physical expression (especially staying after everybody else leaves) as consent in such a circumstance. It would be hard to prosecute in a court of law.
There was a rape case in south Florida many years ago where the defendant claimed the victim's attire signaled to him that sex would be forthcoming if social contact was sustained throughout the evening. The woman was wearing a short skirt with no underwear beneath. They met at a bar. Conversation and a series of drinks followed. They went outside together. Foreplay began. He wanted more. She claimed she did not.
Accused was convicted. When asked why she wore no underwear, she replied it was too hot in the evenings to wear any. August in WPB area.
NB: To finish the clothing. The woman's upper body attire consisted of a tank top with brassiere underneath.
I'm sorry, but if you're putting yourself in intimate, body-on-body contact with near strangers in a "cuddle puddle", you are not reducing your risk of being attacked. That is wreckless behavior considering many men - deranged or not - will mistakenly interpret your physical expression (especially staying after everybody else leaves) as consent in such a circumstance. It would be hard to prosecute in a court of law.
Thanks for proving the point, and blaming the woman.
Apparently you didn't read her entire post, just some knee-jerk reaction like you're accusing us of.
I'm sorry, but if you're putting yourself in intimate, body-on-body contact with near strangers in a "cuddle puddle", you are not reducing your risk of being attacked. That is wreckless behavior considering many men - deranged or not - will mistakenly interpret your physical expression (especially staying after everybody else leaves) as consent in such a circumstance.
There was a rape case in south Florida many years ago where the defendant claimed the victim's attire signaled to him that sex would be forthcoming if social contact was sustained throughout the evening. The woman was wearing a short skirt with no underwear beneath. They met at a bar. Conversation and a series of drinks followed. They went outside together. Foreplay began. He wanted more. She claimed she did not.
Accused was convicted. When asked why she wore no underwear, she replied it was too hot in the evenings to wear any. August in WPB area.
Your example is a great one to make a point. Did the woman "deserve" to be raped in that case? Of course not, the fault and guilt is on the part of the criminal. It's not her fault, she is not to blame.
However...if I want to avoid a burglary of my house, I take basic precautions. I lock the door and close the garage door when I leave. Don't leave expensive items sitting around outside (OK, so I'm a hypocrite-I live in the country and spendy stuff sits outside the shop). Just the same, the princple applies. If my stuff gets stolen, it's not my fault, it's the azzhat criminal. But there are some things I can do to reduce the risk of it happening again. And I wouldn't be very responsible if I didn't at least look into those things.
It's no different in the above example. If you want to reduce the chances of being a victim of a violent crime (and I don't differentiate between rape and any violent assault-at least this woman wasn't killed), take some basic precautions. One of the obvious ones would be don't go and get drunk and go home with a complete stranger (potential criminal). If you're going to go drinking, it seems like it would be much safer to go in a group and have a designated "lookout" to keep an eye on things. (the fact that the woman in the above case wasn't wearing underware is pretty much irrelevant). It's not a matter of "blaming the victim" (or survivor if we must), it's looking at precautions to reduce the odds, and make things more difficult for a criminal.
I'm sorry, but if you're putting yourself in intimate, body-on-body contact with near strangers in a "cuddle puddle", you are not reducing your risk of being attacked. That is wreckless behavior considering many men - deranged or not - will mistakenly interpret your physical expression (especially staying after everybody else leaves) as consent in such a circumstance. It would be hard to prosecute in a court of law.
Point of information: When I put myself in that situation I was surrounded by friends I know and trust. I was dressed incredibly modestly and was tucked inside my sleeping bag. I fell asleep for a couple hours and that was what I woke up to. Being asleep isn't offering consent.
Blaming the survivor doesn't make it better.
Situations like that are why I press for verbal consent. The absence of no isn't yes.
Thanks for proving the point, and blaming the woman.
Apparently you didn't read her entire post, just some knee-jerk reaction like you're accusing us of.
Wrong again. Frankly, I'm too smart to be bullied by you falling back on this "blame the victim" b.s. Here's her entire post, which I read:
Quote:
This.
I was sexually abused as a child. It's over 13 years later now, and I'm still just barely scratching the crux of the problem. There's no changing that.
And Toyman At Jewel Lake keeps putting a lot of pressure on fighting back and saying no. Sometimes that isn't possible. Just because physically you can make the noise "no" doesn't mean that emotionally you can do it. A few weeks ago I was in a cuddle puddle and everyone had left except for me and a dude I didn't know that well. He started cuddling me, lips on my neck, hand up my shirt. Everything in me was screaming to say no, to run, to leave. I couldn't. I shut down. I'm incredibly grateful nothing serious happened that night but I still have to acknowledge that for some people that isn't always the case. Some people can't say no and it does happen. What's your advice to them?
She asked for advice on how not to have sexual contact with a stranger you're rubbing your body against in an intimate manner. I offered her sound advice. Welcome to the real world.
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