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The only type of equality I prefer is equality of opportunity, so the bold portion of your post applies now since equal opportunity by race has been reached. We need to exchange these race-based stats and target class/poverty, because no organized effort, outside of a few racist individuals is attempting to hold back Blacks from succeeding. You, I, and the other intelligent and educated Black posters here are proof of this, along with many examples of successful, everyday non-celebrity Blacks who came from poor backgrounds. We all have life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness now, it's simply some who don't take advantage of it. If you're looking for equality of outcome, that's a different story and I don't agree with that philosophy since it's not earned. All I want is a level playing field to succeed or fail on my own terms, and that's exactly what exists.
My position is the same as President Obama's. We need to help the unemployed and poor people of all races, which will in turn help Black poor people. I only refer to poor, because successful people of all races don't need as much outside help, if any at all. If the stats are skewed and Blacks seem to be less successful, then we should target poor people in general so we're not discriminating against other citizens. I don't want to repeat the discrimination that occurred to us in the past, even for "positive" reasons. I prefer to give a handup to everyone who needs one.
It’s easy to throw out the term "equality of opportunity", but what does that actually mean? By the way it is used, equality of opportunity simply means that absence of laws that restrict or prohibit a group of people from having access. Hence, people argue that there has been equality of opportunity since civil rights legislation passed. Thus, equality of opportunity is in essence nothing more than equality under the law, meaning that a particular race or gender cannot be RESTRICTED from participation. It DOES NOT mean that there is EQUALITY OF CHANCE OR EQUAL PROBABILITY OF SUCCESS.
Let’s juxtapose a black male child reared in a housing project and who attends a very poor school. Socialization and enculturation manifest most profoundly and naturally through emulation. Humans are essentially copy cats. We are programmed by what we see and what does the poor black kid see? The poor black does not live in an environment where they can see educated doctors, lawyers, Engineers and the like to naturally emulate. What he sees is poor black people and when he turns on the TV he sees people who look like him finding success in sports and entertainment. He sees others in his community flossing or stunting from hustling or people who have made descent living working in factories (but those jobs have dried up).
Now let’s take the life of a wealthy white kid who grows up in a home of doctors and lawyers and lives in a community of upper income professionals and business owners. He attends the best of schools and have the best connections and exist in an environment where all he has to do to achieve success is copy what he sees around him, which is the natural way that beings learn to survive. This kid not only sees people who look like him being successful in his community, but in every aspect of life and in all the history books. It looks like a world that has been tailored made for people who look like him that bestows an extra degree of confidence and expectation upon him.
Now these two people have equal opportunity ONLY as far as the law goes. There are no laws that says that either one cannot apply for the same schools or same jobs. However, anyone can see that there is not REAL EQUAL OPPORTUNITY because one faces so many more hurdles and obstacles and issues than the other.
Of course you might want to say that such is a class thing....and not a race thing. However, whether its class or race it debunks the myth that equal opportunity means equal chance. Secondly, you cannot separate class and race. Anything that is classism is also racism as a consequence of not reconciling race. Black people are disproportionately poor because of historical racism. So anything you do to hurt poor people will hurt black people more than white people in regards to percentage, and anything you do for rich people will benefits whites more than black people.
There are laws against racism, but there are no laws against classism. Hence, if you wanted to attack black people you could legally do it through attacking the poor because blacks are disproportionately poor. As a matter of fact, black poverty is about 3 times the rate of white poverty. So classism is often a trojan horse for racism.
All that having been said there is another major flaw in your reasoning. That flaw is the assumption that racism has not limited successful black people. Have you ever thought that there are many successful blacks WHO SHOULD ACTUALLY BE MORE SUCCESSFULL THAN THEY ARE? There are many blacks who worked hard and achieved success, while starting from nothing. Yet, had they started from SOMETHING they would be much more successful than they are. So even though their race and background did not keep them from breaking through poverty and into the middle and upper class.......that does NOT mean that their race and background did not limit them reaching their FULL POTENTIAL or the full merits of their effort.
I know for a fact that I am one of the lowest paid for my position at my company. There was another sister at the company who quit and in her exit interview she mentioned that she had learned that she was one of the lowest paid at her position as well. I know for a FACT that I add more value than a lot of people who make a lot more than I do. However, I am not supposed to know what other people make and I cannot compromise my source because it would jeopardize their position. Thus, AT ALL LEVELS, your race can limit you, even when you are "successful".
It’s easy to throw out the term "equality of opportunity", but what does that actually mean? By the way it is used, equality of opportunity simply means that absence of laws that restrict or prohibit a group of people from having access. Hence, people argue that there has been equality of opportunity since civil rights legislation passed. Thus, equality of opportunity is in essence nothing more than equality under the law, meaning that a particular race or gender cannot be RESTRICTED from participation. It DOES NOT mean that there is EQUALITY OF CHANCE OR EQUAL PROBABILITY OF SUCCESS.
Let’s juxtapose a black male child reared in a housing project and who attends a very poor school. Socialization and enculturation manifest most profoundly and naturally through emulation. Humans are essentially copy cats. We are programmed by what we see and what does the poor black kid see? The poor black does not live in an environment where they can see educated doctors, lawyers, Engineers and the like to naturally emulate. What he sees is poor black people and when he turns on the TV he sees people who look like him finding success in sports and entertainment. He sees others in his community flossing or stunting from hustling or people who have made descent living working in factories (but those jobs have dried up).
Now let’s take the life of a wealthy white kid who grows up in a home of doctors and lawyers and lives in a community of upper income professionals and business owners. He attends the best of schools and have the best connections and exist in an environment where all he has to do to achieve success is copy what he sees around him, which is the natural way that beings learn to survive. This kid not only sees people who look like him being successful in his community, but in every aspect of life and in all the history books. It looks like a world that has been tailored made for people who look like him that bestows an extra degree of confidence and expectation upon him.
Now these two people have equal opportunity ONLY as far as the law goes. There are no laws that says that either one cannot apply for the same schools or same jobs. However, anyone can see that there is not REAL EQUAL OPPORTUNITY because one faces so many more hurdles and obstacles and issues than the other.
Of course you might want to say that such is a class thing....and not a race thing. However, whether its class or race it debunks the myth that equal opportunity means equal chance. Secondly, you cannot separate class and race. Anything that is classism is also racism as a consequence of not reconciling race. Black people are disproportionately poor because of historical racism. So anything you do to hurt poor people will hurt black people more than white people in regards to percentage, and anything you do for rich people will benefits whites more than black people.
There are laws against racism, but there are no laws against classism. Hence, if you wanted to attack black people you could legally do it through attacking the poor because blacks are disproportionately poor. As a matter of fact, black poverty is about 3 times the rate of white poverty. So classism is often a trojan horse for racism.
All that having been said there is another major flaw in your reasoning. That flaw is the assumption that racism has not limited successful black people. Have you ever thought that there are many successful blacks WHO SHOULD ACTUALLY BE MORE SUCCESSFULL THAN THEY ARE? There are many blacks who worked hard and achieved success, while starting from nothing. Yet, had they started from SOMETHING they would be much more successful than they are. So even though their race and background did not keep them from breaking through poverty and into the middle and upper class.......that does NOT mean that their race and background did not limit them reaching their FULL POTENTIAL or the full merits of their effort.
I know for a fact that I am one of the lowest paid for my position at my company. There was another sister at the company who quit and in her exit interview she mentioned that she had learned that she was one of the lowest paid at her position as well. I know for a FACT that I add more value than a lot of people who make a lot more than I do. However, I am not supposed to know what other people make and I cannot compromise my source because it would jeopardize their position. Thus, AT ALL LEVELS, your race can limit you, even when you are "successful".
Great post! And may I ad, that the successful blacks who have made it, are more vulnerable to falling back into poverty, than whites at the same class level. So if the white middle-class is more vulnerable to downward mobility these days, that goes double for the black middle class.
Well-off blacks, tend to have far fewer assests than whites at the same class level, to protect them against hard times. There is now a large wealth-gap, between blacks and whites, that has gotten worse, due to the bad economy. Below is a link to an article, that explains this phenomenon: Whites 5 Times Richer Than Blacks
So I'm seeing that not only are African Americans having a harder time achieving upward mobility now, but they are more likely than ever, to suffer downward mobility, if they're middle class, or even affluent.
Well said. That's why I addressed this thread to African Americans specifically, so other races won't see it as an invitation to come here, and trash us. But I guess even addressing a post to African Americans specifically, won't stop the onslaught of other races, particularly whites, coming here and denigrating us.
Great post! And may I ad, that the successful blacks who have made it, are more vulnerable to falling back into poverty, than whites at the same class level. So if the white middle-class is more vulnerable to downward mobility these days, that goes double for the black middle class.
Well-off blacks, tend to have far fewer assests than whites at the same class level, to protect them against hard times. There is now a large wealth-gap, between blacks and whites, that has gotten worse, due to the bad economy. Below is a link to an article, that explains this phenomenon: Whites 5 Times Richer Than Blacks
So I'm seeing that not only are African Americans having a harder time achieving upward mobility now, but they are more likely than ever, to suffer downward mobility, if they're middle class, or even affluent.
You are absolutely right about downward mobility. Thats easy to understand when its really ONLY been one generation that has been solid middle class. In 1960 60% of blacks lived in poverty. That declined to 24% in 2000 and has been steadily rising since. Black wealth is 15 times less than whites, much of which is related to the value of property and stocks. My parents lived in their home for about 40 years. They own it and it has a market value of about 30,000k. Homes in the community have recently sold for about 6,000k. Now, in the suburbs where older whites live, the homes of older whites are worth 5 times as much. So the wealth gap means that we have nothing to fall back on when our income collapses.....no wealth to convert to cash to maintain our standards of living. Its amazing to me when I hear white people on the news say they have been out of work for over a year.....yet they are still in their homes. Obviously they had a lot of wealth stored to get them through. Many, not all, have wealth passed down to them from their parents. One of my co workers inherited about 1000 acres of land in another state and a companay pays them to wind farm on that land. All the wealth that whites were allowed to accrue during the period of our oppression, where we could hardly accumulate any, has been passed down....which helps them out today during hard times. However, blacks have little inhertied weatlh to see us through these times......because our ancestors were oppressed and could not accumulate wealth like whites could (not all....but many) and we have little inheritance.
Again... if you are being downtrodden, it is not due to the color of your skin, it is by your own demise.
Thank you ole mighty Oracle for that piece of wisdom. Oh mighty Oracle can you give us the cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes as well? I will propogate it to the masses once you enlighten me.
Thank you ole mighty Oracle for that piece of wisdom. Oh mighty Oracle can you give us the cure for cancer, heart disease, diabetes as well? I will propogate it to the masses once you enlighten me.
oh good ol IS.... I see you still despise white people and blacks that disagree with you. That is ok, you can have your belief, and I will live in reality, where the color of our skin doesnt determine who we will become in life, we take it upon ourselves to make that determination
Its amazing to me when I hear white people on the news say they have been out of work for over a year.....yet they are still in their homes. Obviously they had a lot of wealth stored to get them through. Many, not all, have wealth passed down to them from their parents. One of my co workers inherited about 1000 acres of land in another state and a companay pays them to wind farm on that land. All the wealth that whites were allowed to accrue during the period of our oppression, where we could hardly accumulate any, has been passed down....which helps them out today during hard times. However, blacks have little inhertied weatlh to see us through these times......because our ancestors were oppressed and could not accumulate wealth like whites could (not all....but many) and we have little inheritance.
I never thought about that aspect of it, but it's obviously true. I wonder who had the most inherited wealth among the whites? My ancestors were mostly Irish and there was no wealth to pass down for us either.
I think most of those unemployed white people who are still in their homes are just living there until the bank sale.
Who is this "we must be idiots" and "people like you" you're referring to? I'm just as Black as you are buddy, sorry to disappoint.
Just because you say something is asinine and anti-intellectual doesn't make it so. Race-based statistics are racist in nature, and here's why:
What does a wealthy Black businessman who lives in a suburb (of any racial composition) have in common with a Black blue collar plumber from a middle class area? What about a law abiding, but Black unemployed poor man, and a Black convicted felon? Answer: skin color and historical racism from whites. That's it. So to advocate for statistics that typically paint a picture of us as a negative group only helps to perpetuate negative racial stereotypes. Why do you want government stats to tell you that you're part of a group that's not succeeding due to color, instead of placing people in the correct categories that truly tell why you are succeeding, and they aren't so we can help the people in poverty who really need help.
If the Black unemployment rate is high, then maybe we need to figure out how many of these people have low/no skills, are from poor backgrounds and haven't made it out yet. I would bet money that poor Blacks are bringing down the "Black unemployment rate". I have yet to know an educated Black person who could not find a good job if he or she wanted one, or to have a more difficult time in locating a job than whites.
As Black Americans we need to make a choice, either to be Americans, or to be separate from everyone else. We can't fight to be recognized as true Americans and then say "oh no, we've got our own stuff, stay away". That's divisive and regressing back to "separate but equal". We need to realize we cling to these race-based ideologies only because whites forced it upon us in the past. They forced us to stick together, and it was appropriate for the times. But now we live in a different time, with equal opportunities to succeed. Anyone can go to school, obtain an education, and find a job. Or, they can self-educate and start a business and race will not hold them back if they offer a good product or service. There are too many success stories of Blacks in America to deny this. Based on your past posts, you're successful and educated as any other person on this site, so even you help prove my point.
I understand your agenda and ideology is different from mine. I'm fine with that and respect it, so I would hope to receive the same from you.
Take care.
The fundamental flaw in your argument is the preposition that statistical information related to Black Americans is totally negative when in fact much of the historical statistical information in terms of overall progress economic and educational progress is positive. The issue is that most Americans both Black and White don't really research and understand the information. Also the media tends to play up the negative statistics when it comes to Black Americans and either downplays or doesn't discuss at all positive things. More likely than not you will find positive news about Black American social and economic progress in media oriented to the Black American market as opposed to mainstream media.
Freshman enrollment of Hispanics in higher education jumped by 15 percent in 2008, compared to 8 percent for blacks, 6 percent for Asians and 3 percent for whites.
Basically the growth rate in terms of students entering college is actually higher for Black Americans than it is for White Americans or Asian Americans.
You will also hear Conservatives lament "Nothing has been done to reduce poverty with all those government programs". Again the historical information shows it's not true. In 1959 over 55% of Black Americans lived below poverty level in 2009 the figure was 25.9%. In other words the number of Black Americans in the United States more the doubled but the number of Black Americans below the poverty line remain basically the same. The poverty rate for Black Americans had been as low as 22.5% in 2000 PRIOR TO THE ELECTION OF GEORGE W. BUSH JR. Since that time the poverty rate for all Americans has increased. In fact the poverty rate under George W. Bush Jr. increase at a higher rate than any President over the past 50 years that served two terms.
Bush 43
Americans Below The Poverty Level
2001 - 32.907 million 2008 - 39.829 million - increase 21.04%
Overall Population Growth
2001 - 281.475 million 2008 - 301.041 million - increase 6.95%
During the Bush 43 Administration poverty INCREASED three times faster than rate of population growth.
Clinton
Americans Below The Poverty Level
1993 - 39.265 million 2000 - 31.581 million - decrease 19.57%
Overall Population Growth
1993 - 259.278 million 2000 - 278.944 million - increase 7.58%
During the Clinton Administration poverty DECREASED 2.5 faster than the population grew.
Reagan
Americans Below The Poverty Level
1981 - 31.822 million 1988 - 31.745 million - decrease 0.24%
Overall Population Growth
1981 - 227.157 million 1988 - 243.53 million - increase 7.21%
During the Reagan Administration poverty was relatively flat compared to population growth.
Nixon-Ford
Americans Below The Poverty Level
1969 - 24.147 million 1976 - 24.975 million - increase 3.43%
Overall Population Growth
1969 - 199.517 million 1976 - 212.303 million - increase 6.41%
During the Nixon - Ford Administrations poverty INCREASED about half as fast as the population grew.
Kennedy-Johnson
Americans Below The Poverty Level
1961 - 39.628 million 1968 - 25.389 million decrease 35.93%
Overalll Population Growth
1961 - 181.277 million 1968 - 197.628 million increase 9.02%
During the Kennedy-Johnson Administration poverty DECREASED about four times faster than the population grew.
Once you've done the research it becomes abundantly clear one; Black Americans have made considerable economic, and educational progress in the past 50 years. Two, there is a considerable amount of opinion out there that is not based on factual information as it pertains to the Black Amreicans. It's based in ignorance, stereotypes and outright bigotry. Third, presidential administrations under the Democratic Party have done more to reduce poverty FOR ALL AMERICANS much more effectively than Republican Party presidential administrations. This furher refutes the claim by Conservatives that "Black Ameicans don't get anything by voting for the Democratic Party".
oh good ol IS.... I see you still despise white people and blacks that disagree with you. That is ok, you can have your belief, and I will live in reality, where the color of our skin doesnt determine who we will become in life, we take it upon ourselves to make that determination
Good day to you as well.... Mr. hyperbole. If you can take one quote from ANY of my post that demonstrate despise for whites or blacks......I will cease and desist from this forum. Who has argued that the color of your skin determines who you will become. My parents never taught me that. My parents told me "You have to work twice as hard to get what white folks get". They never told me that my color meant that I could not get it. The problem with the theory of my parents is that if white folks are working hard as they can.....to get what they got........how can I work twice as hard unless I am superior to them?
Look.....there are plenty of forums where I can go and preach to the choir. I actually seek out the opinion of those you think I despise. My opinions are based upon the feed back I get from people and my opinions are never inflexible. I cannot grow in understanding with a closed mind that seeks out the conversation with only those that agree with me.
The fact of the matter is that people like you are not making a logical argument. Its only logical arguments that results in triggering the elasticity of my beliefs and opinions. If you want to convince me of something....then forward a sound logical argument....not conservative talking points.
Last edited by Indentured Servant; 02-23-2011 at 09:28 AM..
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And may I ad, that the successful blacks who have made it, are more vulnerable to falling back into poverty, than whites at the same class level. So if the white middle-class is more vulnerable to downward mobility these days, that goes double for the black middle class. 
