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Old 02-25-2011, 11:14 AM
 
14,249 posts, read 17,885,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrea3821 View Post
What you describe here is scary. The case seems to be that the school system is not recognizing intelligence when it is seen and thus not promoting to higher-level courses or grades, or that they are just dumbing everything down to the lowest level of students (and/or worrying about problem kids) so the intelligent students and even the average students are not challenged adequately.

From personal experience, I know that it can be a little tough to get to where you need to be, at least before entering high school, since then you have options for different class levels. I was always the kid raising my hand to answer questions in my kindergarten class, and my teacher kept saying "Anyone other than Andrea?" She made me cry on picture day. My mom finally got the details out of me (I was only 5) and went to talk to the school. I got promoted to first grade shortly thereafter. The teacher did not take the initiative to see about promoting me, have a parent-teacher conference, nothing. Then to enter the gifted program a few years later, my brother and I had to take IQ tests, which are not cheap, to prove to the school that we could do the work...even though our classroom performance to that point should have been enough to prove that. This after both of us complaining of boredom and wanting to learn new stuff at home (a major clue to our parents that something was going wrong at school). We relocated a year later and my brother ended up skipping 2nd grade, and I believe the teacher did in fact bring that up to my parents so it could be handled properly.

Basically, it seems schools and teachers don't necessarily care too much about the students. This all happened about 20 years ago now, but it seems not much has changed. I feel our gov't-run schools are fundamentally broken and that teachers don't know how to do anything other than stand up front and lecture (and some can't even do that). They cannot deal with the vastly different children in their classrooms, with varying intelligence, motivation, behavior problems or lack thereof, extraversion, learning disabilities, etc. It can't be a one-size-fits-all approach anymore. And if teachers can't accommodate that, they shouldn't teach. Period. Paying them more will not solve the problem.
Taking your last paragraph, I am not convinced that this is down to the teachers. The "one size fits all" system is imposed upon them from above as are the standardized tests and other ways of measuring "performance". I know from life in the corporate world that it is just human nature to try to "manage" the performance measurement system. Also, teachers don't get to choose which kids are in their class. So are we shooting at the wrong target here?
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Inland Levy County, FL
8,806 posts, read 6,092,783 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
well folks be they public or private have a right to sell their labor for as much money as the market will bear.

I'm choosing to only include this excerpt due to the amount of cursing and ***** strewn throughout your posts.

This statement highlights the problem with liberals...you fail to see that public sector workers do not work for what the market will bear, as there is no market supporting their trade. Free public education does not pay what "the market will bear." Don't you see that? The gov't holds the purse strings and can charge taxpayers whatever they feel like charging to pay for services. So it has nothing to do with any kind of market, it has to do with how corrupt and doormat-y the people in office are. In the case of WI, seems nobody has the balls to stand up to the unions thus far, except Scott Walker. I suppose if you really want to stretch it, the market for education is the housing market and the price being paid is property tax...which can only get so high before people refuse to buy, or they just move out of state. But that is stretching it.

Besides, at what point did you suddenly start to agree with free market capitalism to where you're comfortably citing it as an argument against conservatives? How funny.
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Old 02-25-2011, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Inland Levy County, FL
8,806 posts, read 6,092,783 times
Reputation: 2949
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
Well, I don't think that one size fits all. I can only speak to two educational systems from experience and those are the UK and Switzerland. I don't really know the US system for a number of reasons.

In the UK, schools moved away from selection at 11 years old and towards a comprehensive system with schools serving a geographic area. What that has led to is a flight from public education towards private education by those who can afford to and by those bright enough to get a scholarship. It has also led to the phenomenon, that we also have in the US, of the good school district. Instead of paying for education via fees, you pay for it through property prices and local taxes.

In Switzerland (Geneva), they never abandoned selectivity although it happens closer to 15 and 16 than at eleven. The academically gifted kids go on to "college" (high school) and, if they get through that, to University. The kids who do not make college go into the apprenticeship system with day-release to technical schools. Needless to say, there is no significant private sector for Swiss kids.

My brother-in-law (in Boston) was never academically inclined. But he is a very good mechanic and makes an excellent living fixing cars. It would have been a total waste of his time, of money and resources to have tried to push him towards an academic college.

All that said, I think we are shooting at the wrong people by blaming teachers for the failures of our educational system. Politicians and parents are equally to blame IMHO. Can you imagine the reaction of parents when you tell them their kids are not good enough to go on to High School Like politicians, you get the schools and the teachers you deserve.
I do agree with some of what you've said. In the US, some high schools have trade programs, and some offer dual-enrollment with the community college so the kids who may want to do an applied sciences program will get a head start on a degree (or any degree, really, but for your example, applied sciences works). I don't know about Milwaukee b/c we just moved here but in FL, my city had a tech high school that offered auto shop on site and some other things that I don't remember, plus they worked with the local tech college to offer massage school, some health programs and cosmetology. I think this is a great tactic to take and might encourage staying in school for those who might have otherwise dropped out. Then they finish with a high school diploma and a skill. This kind of program should be available everywhere, to help those who are less academically inclined, but right now, it's not the mainstream type of schooling.
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Old 02-25-2011, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,209,134 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrea3821 View Post
I do agree with some of what you've said. In the US, some high schools have trade programs, and some offer dual-enrollment with the community college so the kids who may want to do an applied sciences program will get a head start on a degree (or any degree, really, but for your example, applied sciences works). I don't know about Milwaukee b/c we just moved here but in FL, my city had a tech high school that offered auto shop on site and some other things that I don't remember, plus they worked with the local tech college to offer massage school, some health programs and cosmetology. I think this is a great tactic to take and might encourage staying in school for those who might have otherwise dropped out. Then they finish with a high school diploma and a skill. This kind of program should be available everywhere, to help those who are less academically inclined, but right now, it's not the mainstream type of schooling.
I agree with you but you have to realize that in many communities in the US schools just aren't large enough (enrollment) to provide what you say. I guess the time is coming when we will be racked and stacked into high rises where government can control things more easily and there will be no rural areas any more so these things can be everywhere.

What I am talking about is after the UN gets its Agenda 21 into effect at which time all the middle part of the nation will be turned over to wild animals and totally wild plants. They don't intend to have any part of that part of the country to hold people at all.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:24 PM
 
25,157 posts, read 53,875,707 times
Reputation: 7058
Collectivism is big in the USA.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:27 PM
 
19,226 posts, read 15,292,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
Collectivism is big in the USA.
Collectivism is corporatism.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:39 PM
 
9,879 posts, read 8,002,733 times
Reputation: 2521
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Fine, then hire idiots to teach your idiot children. Problem solved. Turn the country into a the Home of the Brave and the Land of the Idiots.
Sorry but I think we already have

TEACHERS FLUNKING OUT ON STATE TEST CAN'T PASS BASIC EXAM FOR CERTIFICATION (http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2002/05/07/2002-05-07_teachers_flunking_out_on_sta.html - broken link)

Catalyst Notebook :: Fewer teacher candidates pass basic skills test

“It is important to have strong standards,” Fergus says.

But some question whether there’s any correlation between being able to pass the basic skills test and the ability to be a good teacher. Karen Lewis was on the Illinois State Board’s certification committee last year when the change was made.

At the time, Lewis didn’t think the increase in cut scores would be devastating. When she took the test, she found it easy and she thought candidates would adapt, she says.

What she didn’t know is that, in 2001, the rigor of the basic skills test was increased from an 8th-grade level to an 11th-grade level.

Lewis says it doesn't much matter if a 2nd-grade reading teacher can do 11th-grade math. "It doesn't stop you from being an effective teacher," she says."

ARE THEY JOKING - ^^^^^^^
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,209,134 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by pollyrobin View Post
Sorry but I think we already have

TEACHERS FLUNKING OUT ON STATE TEST CAN'T PASS BASIC EXAM FOR CERTIFICATION (http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2002/05/07/2002-05-07_teachers_flunking_out_on_sta.html - broken link)

Catalyst Notebook :: Fewer teacher candidates pass basic skills test

“It is important to have strong standards,” Fergus says.

But some question whether there’s any correlation between being able to pass the basic skills test and the ability to be a good teacher. Karen Lewis was on the Illinois State Board’s certification committee last year when the change was made.

At the time, Lewis didn’t think the increase in cut scores would be devastating. When she took the test, she found it easy and she thought candidates would adapt, she says.

What she didn’t know is that, in 2001, the rigor of the basic skills test was increased from an 8th-grade level to an 11th-grade level.

Lewis says it doesn't much matter if a 2nd-grade reading teacher can do 11th-grade math. "It doesn't stop you from being an effective teacher," she says."

ARE THEY JOKING - ^^^^^^^
Your question about a 2nd grade reading teacher needing to be a math whiz bothers me in that I don't know what the connection between reading and math is.
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Old 02-25-2011, 01:57 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,300 posts, read 54,213,280 times
Reputation: 40623
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
This is exorbitant for professionals with a master's degrees, years of experience and regular courses for certifications? Get ****ing real!
Teachers are like any other group, some are superb at their job and worth every nickel they're paid. There are others who are obviously phoning it in until the pension is vested and others with multiple advanced degrees and brilliant in their knowledge who are simply incapable of teaching/motivating students.

How do we keep the good and pay them well, while cutting the dead wood?
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:36 PM
 
4,127 posts, read 5,059,149 times
Reputation: 1621
Quote:
Originally Posted by clb10 View Post
Firing a bad teacher is like unscrambling an egg.

No, wait.

It's much easier to unscramble an egg.
Private schools have no problem unscrambling eggs. Funny how most private schools with lesser facilities, lower paid teachers with far less attractive benefit packages, and who spend less money per child still manage to outperform public schools.
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