U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 03-05-2011, 10:56 AM
 
11,145 posts, read 13,542,673 times
Reputation: 4209

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude View Post
It's easy to be astounded by exaggerated stereotypes. The persistent mischaracterization of each other accounts for no small measure of the goofiness that constitutes so many CD OPs.


On the contrary. Liberals do tend to feel that government can solve some problems, and that it is not automatically evil. They also tend to prioritize issues differently, and stress issues (such as social justice) that "free markets" are completely indifferent to.


It is not simply an issue of which is more expensive or efficient. It is an issue of getting stuff done that no other social organ has proven capable of accomplishing.

An inefficient something (of value) trumps nothing every day.

But the real conflicts between conservatives and liberals are drive by a fundamental difference in perception.

Conservatives see the world as simpler than liberals do... a vast panoply of conflicts between black and white, good and evil, "you're either with us or against us." I have for some time considered the intellectual exercise of spending just a single day on CD and collecting all the false dichotomies that Conservatives assert... and one of my stock observations is that "right wingers never seem able to count higher than two."

Liberals on the other hand have a far greater tolerance for the messiness and ambiguity of the real world, seeing shades of gray and subtleties that escape conservative notice or concern. They do not automatically make broad value judgments like "governments are bad" or "all Muslims believe X," or liberals believe "that government can solve all problems." Thus it is never difficult to find contradictions in any liberal position... because the real world includes such contradictions and liberals tend to account for them.

But that difference also speaks to why conservatives can reassert themselves with force even after their simplistic policies have proven so disastrous; why conservatism is an easier sell to the unhappy and angry. Conservatives offer clear and unambiguous answers to a broad group of people who are angry and frustrated by ambiguity and uncertainty. It does not matter whether they are right are wrong... only that they are certain.

It is an easy message to package and sell. It is an easy message to make understandable to people who do not want to be bothered by subtlety or detail. It is a message that conforms to the "sound bite" because its ideas actually are just that small.

In this way, a huge segment of the electorate consistently votes against their own interests because it is easier to understand a simplistic falsehood like "Obamacare is a government power grab" than a more complex truth such as "the US has the highest health care costs in the world with poorer clinical outcomes than many 3rd world nations."

Conservatism is easy.

And so it will always be a powerful force among those looking for easy answers.
You make some good points (though I do not agree that conservatives can't count above 2 - I know many who are extremely intelligent. In terms of public figures, just think of Dennis Miller or Rep. Paul Ryan).

Research has shown, though, that conservatives do have a much more black-and-white view while liberals tend to have a much more nuanced view and are more comfortable with ambiguities.

I don't think the Democrats do a good job of selling themselves because of this. Obama is a master of holding diametrically opposed views on the same subject simultaneously and understanding that both are right in their own way. That's one of the reasons I voted for him. Very wise, but very hard for many to understand where he stands on certain positions.
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-05-2011, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Austin
28,986 posts, read 15,552,103 times
Reputation: 7744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
Fine - Many conservatives say they are for small government but then use big government to control our lives and define lifestyles and abuse our tax dollars for nefarious purposes every time they have control. Better?

.

No. Then they aren't conservatives.

Both political parties are trying to tell us how to live our lives. It's rampant, and getting worse every year.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Austin
28,986 posts, read 15,552,103 times
Reputation: 7744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
No. Social Conservatives seek to use government to align laws with their interpretation of "Christianity". They are social conservatives, not liberal conservatives, and they want government to dictate the lifestyles we are allowed to pursue. Progressives need to fight passionately to protect freedoms from these big government intrusions.
Then I'm a "progressive". I oppose big government intrusions like the movement spearheaded by the current administration.

And by the way, liberals have their own list of things they want to control and use big government to tell us how to live.

Quote:
The battle over big and small government is not cut along ideological lines. Both sides want more government for certain functions and less for others.
No, that is not true. There are millions of people who want to have a big powerful government. Obama is a perfect example.

And Libertarians do not want "more government" for anything.

Your statement is absolutely false.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 11:09 AM
 
11,145 posts, read 13,542,673 times
Reputation: 4209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadking2003 View Post
Then I'm a "progressive". I oppose big government intrusions like the movement spearheaded by the current administration.

And by the way, liberals have their own list of things they want to control and use big government to tell us how to live.
I never said liberals don't want to use big government. I just said that they're upfront and honest that they believe government can play a significant role in improving performance of the markets to serve as many as possibly safely (such as the new Health Care Law does, while retaining the private sector role in driving it).


Quote:
No, that is not true. There are millions of people who want to have a big powerful government. Obama is a perfect example.

And Libertarians do not want "more government" for anything.

Your statement is absolutely false.
I didn't say anything about libertarians, who are on the fringe right now. I was talking about the mainstream liberal / conservative divide in our country. Both have elements that seek government intervention and control. Just look at the "religious right" for evidence of this on the conservative side.

My statement remains absolutely true.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 11:27 AM
 
11,908 posts, read 14,386,346 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
If you have no sensible argument to make, then we will both agree that you are wrong, I am right, and we'll go our separate ways. Hilarious that you call me a liberal, too. Hilarious.
Isn't Hilarious derived from the same root as Hilary? Back to the point. Some liberals actually attacked government spending programs. Weren't the liberals the ones who wanted to eliminate tobacco subsidies? The $600 hammers in the Pentagon were first exposed by liberals. And many wonder why we spend so much on prisons, many to house nonviolent offenders.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas
5,877 posts, read 4,027,292 times
Reputation: 4130
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
You can come out from under that rock and get educated by the truth, now.

You have obviously confused Conservative with the Republican label, once again.

Both Republicans and especially Democrats have leaned Progressive for so long it is confusing. FDR a Republican, was just as Progressive as Wilson, a Democrat, was.

If we can get the Progressives out of both parties, you will see a move to a stronger nation.
Note the amount of true Conservatives, elected to office in National, State and local elections, Nov, 2nd, 2010!!!! What does that tell us, using common sense. I see it perfectly clear.
FDR was a Democrat.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 03:18 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
60,520 posts, read 30,701,915 times
Reputation: 12891
Quote:
Originally Posted by pvande55 View Post
Isn't Hilarious derived from the same root as Hilary? Back to the point. Some liberals actually attacked government spending programs. Weren't the liberals the ones who wanted to eliminate tobacco subsidies? The $600 hammers in the Pentagon were first exposed by liberals. And many wonder why we spend so much on prisons, many to house nonviolent offenders.

$600? That is cheap to the $2500 hammers they were buying.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
60,520 posts, read 30,701,915 times
Reputation: 12891
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthGAbound12 View Post
FDR was a Democrat.

Yes we covered that.
We established I was using Progressive tactics, to make some believe something that was not true. It was a fun exercise.
Some had to go look and some knew for sure.

It is the one's that didn't know or didn't go look, that could be a big problem for future generations. How did they do it before the internet and as much educational information that we have at out fingertips. You understanding how we got where we are today?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 03:29 PM
 
17,022 posts, read 9,079,698 times
Reputation: 5686
Some of us learned well before the internet.
That in spite of the indoctrination that wasn't as advanced yet and from sources other than the centers of same.

God help us later (not too later on) as I see what you speak of at work often.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-05-2011, 03:39 PM
 
14,920 posts, read 10,733,656 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
That's just a dumb recognition. The private sector has and does provide every single service the government "performs". And does it better.
Military defense? Police and fire response? Planning and building of a cohesive road system that serves all people? Maintaining a clean environment for the protection of public health?


Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioIstheBest View Post
And at 2-4 times less cost. The only reason anyone wants more government is because they are naive or power hungry. That's it. There is no evidence that the market has ever failed at providing anything.
Hardly. The private sector very often wastes much, much more than the government does or would (they have to rent the most expensive real estate, they have to pay their board members tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars, they have to fly everywhere in private jets). Look at healthcare. Our private system is much more wasteful than any other 1st world health care system - all of which are more pubcially controlled than ours.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top