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Old 03-07-2011, 06:31 PM
 
8,801 posts, read 5,339,424 times
Reputation: 3672

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
Capitalism sucks. Period. I know that may sound shocking, but it's true -- at least of unregulated, laissez-faire "free market" capitalism. It screws the poor and middle class out of a decent living, while enriching the corporations that send our jobs overseas and making the fat cats even fatter. It is a disgusting, evil system based upon greed and avarice. It is based on the lust for more, more, MORE while stopping at nothing to feed that desire.
Given that we have been presented a completely corrupt form of capitalism, with only the illusion of "free markets", that may be why you are confused.

Throughout human history, man has operated under various forms of free market cooperatives very successfully .... community based and geographically complementary, with cooperation with others in trade and barter .... all of which are free market based.

Centralized power of control is what leads to system wide corruption and manipulation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
In a capitalist system, corporate execs will slash thousands of American jobs to add a few pennies to their annual bonuses. They will send skilled jobs to China and Cambodia, laying off American workers and forcing children to work in sweatshops for pennies per day. These soulless organizations will sell out American workers to save a pittance, reaping record profits while we grow more and more desperate. If people here are fortunate enough to keep their jobs, they'll see their wages slashed, pensions cut and benefits scaled back. When unions try to stand up for workers rights, the government moves in to bust the unions in the name of "saving money" (look at what's happening in Wisconsin). However, raising taxes on the rich and corporations is out of the question. The government gives corporate behemoths tax breaks and exemptions and even bailouts while cutting essential services like education and unemployment benefits. It is disgusting.
Again, what you describe here is a fascist-communist type system, where the ultra wealthy (mainly Bankers) and the central government conspire together to enslave and control the masses. No difference between the modern day American system and that of the old Soviet Union or China. You have top down control .... and in reality, the American system in it's current form is even more controlling and oppressive than the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany, due to advances in technology allowing more control.

Here in the US, the masses have been controlled by the media propaganda and through control of finances, as compared to other systems that used force and coercion. But the end results are the same ... and if you check, you'll find that the United States incarcerates more human beings than any other country in the World.

That is neither a sign of free society or of free market economy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
It's not just about jobs either. Take healthcare. A man works hard, goes to college, and gets a good job with health benefits. If he loses his "good job," he'll be out of luck, becoming one of the millions of uninsured Americans. At least in almost any other developed country, you don't have to worry about lacking health insurance because you lose your job. Also, what of all the people with pre-existing conditions - the private health insurance companies look for ways to deny them.
The greatest favor economic decline may provide is a lack of health insurance. Given the status of our current health care system, you'll likely live longer if you avoid it altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
People keep talking about "high taxes" and how they don't want to pay taxes. I really don't get this. I'd rather pay higher taxes and get better services than save money on taxes and have to fight the corporate machine to get essential services like healthcare. I'd rather tax the living crap out of the rich and corporations to ensure everyone gets a free education, a living-wage job, a home, unlimited unemployment insurance and guaranteed access to free or very low-cost healthcare and prescription drugs.
We need a complete overhaul of the "system". A total restructuring and return to a true free market society. That would start with a drastic reduction in the size of government ... particularly federal. Remember, central control is the breeding ground for corruption and undue power to control and manipulate. The moment you have some idiotic bureaucracy making decisions for everyone, you have forces laying in wait to ensure that those decision makers fix the game in their favor, immediately rendering the "free market" null and void.

As for taxes and government "providing for you" .... as the old saying goes, "A government powerful enough to give you everything, also has the power to take everything away".

The problem with paying higher taxes to get "better services" is quite obvious. Look around you. You pay more for everything today, and get less in return. This is the primary problem in central control, and inherent in monopolistic industries, with NO GREATER EXAMPLE than the Government/Pharmaceutical Corp controlled "Sick Care System". Given that sickness is what feeds the "Health Care" industry, with good health being the mortal enemy of this "for profit" industry, expecting the system to promote health is quite literally an asinine display of ignorance and naivete. It's like expecting the Cattle Industry to promote vegetarianism. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

The very moment you allow government to take what is yours ... the fruits of your labor, you are, BY DEFINITION .... a Slave. You work, you earn your money by your own labor and sweat, and someone takes it away from you. At this point you work for them, and not you.

What you describe is SLAVERY. "I'll work .... I'll be happy to pay high taxes so long as they provide me what I need"?

Then, pick cotton, allow the plantation owner to provide you a shack. But don't expect to be invited to sit on the front porch and sip sweet tea with the Master on a hot summer day ..... you've got work to do and taxes to pay.
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Old 03-07-2011, 07:02 PM
 
8,801 posts, read 5,339,424 times
Reputation: 3672
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
You're hilarious. Why quiz me about three governmental or quasi-governmental organizations when I am talking about capitalism?
Well then, to you, I'm providing some entertainment value! Laughing is good for the soul.

As much as you'd like to try, you cannot separate "Capitalism" from the "Capitalists", and there is NOTHING AT ALL free market about the "Capitalists". They abhor free markets ... these are monopoly men who wake each day looking for another example of "free market" to devour.

It would be similar to suggest that "free farming" existed, with one company or group controlling the water spigot supplying every farm. Some farms get a little water ... and some a little more ... some may get a lot and some not at all .... yet there is free competition amongst the farmers? Hardly.

Those entities I mentioned control the water (money) supply to the markets. That is VERY RELEVANT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
Look at the last one hundred businesses to whom you paid money by cash, check, or credit card. If you did not gain some "value or service" in exchange for your money, then you are a....[self-censored for violation of C-D terms].
You could at least give me a hint about what I am that would might violate the TOS ... surely you are creative enough to be a little more specific.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
Or were the last one hundred businesses with whom you did business a "well organized, tightly knit structure of parasites feeding off of humanity like blood sucking insects?" If so, why are you spending your money with them? Hmmmmm?
Well, in the case of the corporation that provides my internet service, and the corporation that provided my computer, I did so for the privilege of conversing with you .... in this case, that might not be a good example of value ... but I use these tools for other things that might make up the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
I do know from my experience in a competitive arena that I must provide value, to the best of my ability, in excess of that provided by my competitors, in order to prosper. My customers win, and so do I. All this hooey about slaves and parasites and the rest of it simply does not enter into it.
I noticed that you didn't address the question of Farmers? And this may be a wild assumption on my part, but I'd wager that what ever it is that you and your company provide humanity, it's probably of lessor significance than food and water?

And just maybe .... humanity would survive without you and your company?

I know this much .... humanity would be a lot better off if Monsanto Corporation ceased to exist .... I dare say the Gulf Coast residents would be better off if BP never existed .... the American people would be better off if the Federal Reserve Corp never existed. I could list hundreds more "entities" who's profits and success have NOTHING TO DO with value provided, unless your measure of value includes sickness, war, exploitation, suffering, and death. If these things ever become valuable to humanity, then you could make a case. Until then, your theory of value relativity has a few holes to plug up.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:07 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
4,028 posts, read 6,224,730 times
Reputation: 1305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rggr View Post
How could you be tired of it? You have never lived under "unregulated, laissez-faire "free market" capitalism." I'm not saying we shouldn't have regulations, but's let's be honest about what we have.
You don't need to have tried something else to know that you are tired of another.
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Old 03-07-2011, 08:23 PM
 
10,543 posts, read 11,683,851 times
Reputation: 2797
Quote:
Originally Posted by thePR View Post
You don't need to have tried something else to know that you are tired of another.
It's pretty hard to be tired of something if you haven't experienced it. The OP made some valid points about some of the people in big business. However, those are a fraction of the businesses out there, and what the OP misses is that if government had to operate by the same standards, many of these saviors would be in jail for mismanagement of finances.
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Old 03-07-2011, 09:23 PM
 
3,283 posts, read 4,562,399 times
Reputation: 748
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
Capitalism sucks. Period. I know that may sound shocking, but it's true -- at least of unregulated, laissez-faire "free market" capitalism. It screws the poor and middle class out of a decent living, while enriching the corporations that send our jobs overseas and making the fat cats even fatter. It is a disgusting, evil system based upon greed and avarice. It is based on the lust for more, more, MORE while stopping at nothing to feed that desire.

In a capitalist system, corporate execs will slash thousands of American jobs to add a few pennies to their annual bonuses. They will send skilled jobs to China and Cambodia, laying off American workers and forcing children to work in sweatshops for pennies per day. These soulless organizations will sell out American workers to save a pittance, reaping record profits while we grow more and more desperate. If people here are fortunate enough to keep their jobs, they'll see their wages slashed, pensions cut and benefits scaled back. When unions try to stand up for workers rights, the government moves in to bust the unions in the name of "saving money" (look at what's happening in Wisconsin). However, raising taxes on the rich and corporations is out of the question. The government gives corporate behemoths tax breaks and exemptions and even bailouts while cutting essential services like education and unemployment benefits. It is disgusting.

It's not just about jobs either. Take healthcare. A man works hard, goes to college, and gets a good job with health benefits. If he loses his "good job," he'll be out of luck, becoming one of the millions of uninsured Americans. At least in almost any other developed country, you don't have to worry about lacking health insurance because you lose your job. Also, what of all the people with pre-existing conditions - the private health insurance companies look for ways to deny them.

People keep talking about "high taxes" and how they don't want to pay taxes. I really don't get this. I'd rather pay higher taxes and get better services than save money on taxes and have to fight the corporate machine to get essential services like healthcare. I'd rather tax the living crap out of the rich and corporations to ensure everyone gets a free education, a living-wage job, a home, unlimited unemployment insurance and guaranteed access to free or very low-cost healthcare and prescription drugs.

we have capitalism in america? that's news to me
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Old 03-07-2011, 11:08 PM
 
7,535 posts, read 4,025,701 times
Reputation: 1187
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
There was never a "free market". There will never be. Prove me wrong.
You're right.
"Just like supply-side economics, free market is a term used to describe a political or ideological viewpoint on policy and is not a field within economics" Free Market Definition
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Old 03-07-2011, 11:41 PM
 
7,535 posts, read 4,025,701 times
Reputation: 1187
Quote:
Originally Posted by passat View Post
I'm sorry but I'm new here and you seem to have a handle on Capitalism. I have one question that seems to be unanswered. Could you tell me when America became a Capitalist state?
We began as a socialist economy:

"Theodore H. White, author of Fire in the Ashes: Europe in Mid-Century (1953) wrote, "Socialism is the belief and the hope that by proper use of government power, men can be rescued from their helplessness in the wild cycling cruelty of depression and boom."" Socialism in America

Capitalism was introduced:

" In nature, only the fittest survived—so too in the marketplace." Social Darwinism

We are today a "mixed" economy.
Also, just to add the definition, because I just think it's a cool thing to do:

"some political scientists’ definition of capitalism as a system of governance that originates with state permission for non-state actors to exercise economic power, subject to a set of rules and regulation. Under this definition, capitalism depends upon a delegation of power from the state to economic actors and upon the coercive power of the state to design, monitor, and ultimately enforce market regulation. The pricing mechanism coordinates supply and demand within a given market framework, while the visible hand of government enforces the framework and keeps it up to date." The Roots of Modern Capitalism

Now, I must point something out here (not to you exactly to the general readers) that through one man, Bill Gates, I was able to access the Internet and provide an answer to this posters question.

One man, and how many have benefited from just one man? (no Bill Gates did not create the Internet, I'm not ignorant) Yes, he is very wealthy and there is something that is just so wrong with that, we turn these machines on most every day of our lives and gripe about our economic system, being so horrible.

Go take it down the road folks, because I'm not buying all the wine your selling, today.

By buying the products, and through our supply and demand system, people are in support of the very companies they complain about who they claim monopolies smaller businesses and stunt their growth. If nothing else, Microsoft has given small business a greater edge on the competition.

Ma Bell split up and so did Microsoft, because the government intervened. Now if people would stop supporting that which they also condemn, then they would see their full power and potential arise in---the market place.

Start doing things differently in putting fuel in your car and watch the prices at the pumps go down. I know for the past 11 years, my car only goes to work and back. I shop by leaving early and I only shop at stores that are in my path towards my place of work. My brother, he lives just 40 miles away from me. It is a shame that I haven't found a job, that his home, is in the path...but, he understands and we chat, via the Internet. (fuel saved)

I won't do anything any different until the price drops down within reason. And that is my part, my solution, that works, for me, in this supply and demand, economy, where the market place is always open to the public.
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Old 03-07-2011, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Chicagoland
4,028 posts, read 6,224,730 times
Reputation: 1305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rggr View Post
It's pretty hard to be tired of something if you haven't experienced it. The OP made some valid points about some of the people in big business. However, those are a fraction of the businesses out there, and what the OP misses is that if government had to operate by the same standards, many of these saviors would be in jail for mismanagement of finances.
Maybe I misunderstood you, the OP is tired of the current system. Is that what you were talking about?
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Old 03-07-2011, 11:58 PM
 
Location: SC
9,038 posts, read 13,892,430 times
Reputation: 3479
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
Capitalism sucks. Period. I know that may sound shocking, but it's true -- at least of unregulated, laissez-faire "free market" capitalism. It screws the poor and middle class out of a decent living, while enriching the corporations that send our jobs overseas and making the fat cats even fatter. It is a disgusting, evil system based upon greed and avarice. It is based on the lust for more, more, MORE while stopping at nothing to feed that desire.

In a capitalist system, corporate execs will slash thousands of American jobs to add a few pennies to their annual bonuses. They will send skilled jobs to China and Cambodia, laying off American workers and forcing children to work in sweatshops for pennies per day. These soulless organizations will sell out American workers to save a pittance, reaping record profits while we grow more and more desperate. If people here are fortunate enough to keep their jobs, they'll see their wages slashed, pensions cut and benefits scaled back. When unions try to stand up for workers rights, the government moves in to bust the unions in the name of "saving money" (look at what's happening in Wisconsin). However, raising taxes on the rich and corporations is out of the question. The government gives corporate behemoths tax breaks and exemptions and even bailouts while cutting essential services like education and unemployment benefits. It is disgusting.

It's not just about jobs either. Take healthcare. A man works hard, goes to college, and gets a good job with health benefits. If he loses his "good job," he'll be out of luck, becoming one of the millions of uninsured Americans. At least in almost any other developed country, you don't have to worry about lacking health insurance because you lose your job. Also, what of all the people with pre-existing conditions - the private health insurance companies look for ways to deny them.

People keep talking about "high taxes" and how they don't want to pay taxes. I really don't get this. I'd rather pay higher taxes and get better services than save money on taxes and have to fight the corporate machine to get essential services like healthcare. I'd rather tax the living crap out of the rich and corporations to ensure everyone gets a free education, a living-wage job, a home, unlimited unemployment insurance and guaranteed access to free or very low-cost healthcare and prescription drugs.
It isn't capitalism. The major media wants you to THINK it is since they are nothing but brainwashing tools for the big corporations. If we had capitalism and actual free markets we wouldn't have a declining standard of living.

What we have is FASCISM where government colludes with the BIG corporations----the TOO BIG TO FAILS. Additionally we have over regulation of small businesses making it virtually impossible to succeed. Remember the bailouts (that are still going on by the way USING OUR MONEY)? The supposed too big to fail banks were given trillions of OUR MONEY because their ponzi schemes failed. Who gave it to them???? The government elites did. If we had REAL CAPITALISM those banks would NOT have been bailed out.

Look at this. It is STILL GOING on whether we want to face up to it and finally stop allowing ourselves to be taken advantage of or not! http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...ailout-machine

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/a...ailout-machine

Last edited by emilybh; 03-08-2011 at 12:07 AM..
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:07 AM
 
7,535 posts, read 4,025,701 times
Reputation: 1187
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rggr View Post
How could you be tired of it? You have never lived under "unregulated, laissez-faire "free market" capitalism." I'm not saying we shouldn't have regulations, but's let's be honest about what we have.
You mean this?

"Others have pointed to numerous contradictions both seeming and real in the American economic formula: a consumer-led society long on materialism but short on saving for the future; a nation of abundant natural resources that has at times abused this bounty; a political system grounded in civic equality but reliant on income inequality to motivate citizens to work hard and invest in learning; a nation with astonishing wealth at the top and more relative poverty than in many of the world’s rich countries." An Economy Driven by Competition

"But the large majority of Americans subscribes to the idea of a dynamic economy that embraces competition, invites striving and invention, heaps rewards on winners, and gives second chances to those who fail. With all its contradictions, the United States has achieved a highly flexible economic system that arguably offers more choices and opportunities than any other, and one that has displayed repeatedly its capacity to repair mistakes and adapt to recessions, wars, and financial panics, gaining strength from its trials. The United States “continues to surprise,” Secretary Rice said, following Obama’s election. “It continues to renew itself.”"

America is not perfect, but it is home to me and capitalism is apart of it's economic system. Which is good, because the alternative would result in brain dead citizens being feed intravenously and I for one don't think, that's any way to live. But thanks to our economy and our laws, those that want to live that way, are free to do so. It won't bother any one else, in the slightest.

Again, is this a great country or what.
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