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Old 03-08-2011, 03:32 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,100,324 times
Reputation: 12105

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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrea3821 View Post
In your opinion, the products were superior. Obviously not everyone else thought that or they would still be in business. Maybe the products were the same but HD could sell them for a lower price. Maybe they were open limited hours and people wanted to shop at the one that has longer hours, open on Sundays, whatever. Maybe the one place doesn't take credit cards. I have no idea without having been there.
I ALWAYS try to speak for myself before I speak for others, much less exclusively for others. And youíre correct in some regards and wrong in assuming the others. The prices were relatively high, but the quality and customer service was definitely better. Clearly, people do not value those more than the price, in which case someone competing with the giants is not operating on similar footing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrea3821 View Post
No, a corporation does not have to be a big business. Anybody can incorporate. Our business is an LLC and it's owned by my husband, another LLC and another individual. The poster said he wants corporations done away with. If he wants big business to be done away with, he should have stated that.
You donít have to clarify the definition of a corporation when the point of the argument is pretty clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
Sam Walton, although dead now, in 1950 opened Walton's 5&10 store in Bentonville, Arkansas. He and his wife opened the first Walmart store in 1962.

Again, what did Sam Walton a ma and pa operation have that no one else has as a ma and pa, that they can not succeed in today's, capital system of (supply and demand) markets?

People are trying to tell me, that ma and pa do not stand a chance today, I believe they do, not only stand a chance, but have the same opportunity they had then to achieve their goals. (baring miss management of their small business)
See my posts above.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:06 PM
 
7,574 posts, read 4,053,399 times
Reputation: 1188
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post

See my posts above.
What the one where said my argument was not valid or my questions unworthy of a response from you, because Sam Walton is dead?
And where you fail to recognize Sam and his wife Helen as a ma and pa, start up business of the 1950's.
Already read it.

Just go away---
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,100,324 times
Reputation: 12105
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
What the one where said my argument was not valid or my questions unworthy of a response from you, because Sam Walton is dead?
And where you fail to recognize Sam and his wife Helen as a ma and pa, start up business of the 1950's.
Already read it.

Just go away---
I know, life must be tough.

Oh yeah, about that Walton guy... how many Mom and pa shops are you aware of that don't mind competing next door with Walmart?
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:11 PM
 
7,574 posts, read 4,053,399 times
Reputation: 1188
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I know, life must be tough.

Oh yeah, about that Walton guy... how many Mom and pa shops are you aware of that don't mind competing next door with Walmart?
I go to walmart four days a week and put frito lay chips on their shelves. If it hadn't been for the dream pursued by ma and pa sam walton and his wife helen, frito lay would not be able to extend the market of their goods and services to that location.

Now, capitalism is bad why? Ah, forget it...you don't know.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,100,324 times
Reputation: 12105
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
I go to walmart four days a week and put frito lay chips on their shelves. If it hadn't been for the dream pursued by ma and pa sam walton and his wife helen, frito lay would not be able to extend the market of their goods and services to that location.

Now, capitalism is bad why? Ah, forget it...you don't know.
Capitalism is bad? The problem is not that dear, but your grasp of it, and how it actually is supposed to work. And thanks for helping bring home the point that Walmart has managed to create a dependency. It isn't just another business. It is a behemoth that I try to stay away from.

Farmers' Market rules for produce, and I prefer Target over Walmart anyway.
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Old 03-08-2011, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,237,226 times
Reputation: 3200
Andrea, I see your point, but I still disagree. First of all, I have no desire to be wealthy -- at least not with earthly riches. As long as I make enough to cover my modest expenses and save for a rainy day -- I'm fine. I don't want to be a fat cat.

Second of all, I do plan to expand my side business someday, but I think now is a bad time. Grant writing is based on helping nonprofits, which are struggling in this recession. Once the economy improves and I save more money, I'll consider it. Right now, my primary focus is paying off old debt and saving cash for the future.

As for corporations -- yes, abolish the structure, along with LLC, limited partnership, S-corp, any sort of limited liability business entity. I don't care if a corporation has one shareholder or a billion, it is an entity that has no place in a democratic society. If someone wants to risk starting a business, they should bear ALL the financial risk, including losing everything they own. Maybe that would cut down on some of the corporate excess, bad business practices and wasteful spending, eliminating the need for government bailouts.

Big conglomerates have the cash to crush Ma and Pa small businesses, which is why they put those stores under! It's not fair competition. I'd support the government breaking up large businesses into smaller ones, and I'd also support governments (federal, state, local) starting up their own state-owned, worker-driven businesses to compete with privately owned firms. The government should set aside a certain percentage of the economy for employee-owned businesses, as well.

A few things I would do to help fix our economy:

1) Abolish all free-trade agreements (NAFTA, CAFTA, etc.)
2) Abolish corporations/limited liability entities
3) Raise income tax rates on those making $50,000 or more per year
4) Pass laws making it illegal for businesses to offshore jobs or move overseas
5) Abolish all private health insurance companies. Create a single-payer, federal health insurance system
6) Establish a federal "Department of the Economy," which will set minimum and maximum prices for all products, minimum and maximum wages, set production schedules of essential goods and control monetary and fiscal policy.
7) Establish state-owned, worker-led businesses to compete with private firms
8) Promote employee-owned businesses
9) Make it illegal for an individual to donate more than $100 to any one politician
10) Make lobbying illegal
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:05 PM
 
7,574 posts, read 4,053,399 times
Reputation: 1188
Default We wrote the rules

Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Capitalism is bad? The problem is not that dear, but your grasp of it, and how it actually is supposed to work. And thanks for helping bring home the point that Walmart has managed to create a dependency. It isn't just another business. It is a behemoth that I try to stay away from.

Farmers' Market rules for produce, and I prefer Target over Walmart anyway.
I asked you a question. I asked, how is capitalism bad? Since it went just bloop up over the head...here it is:

Capitalism: A Love Story | MichaelMoore.com

It isn't the Wal-mart that was once a 5&10 built by a ma and pa, that we should concern ourselves with now that ma and pa earn more money than god created...

It's the rules we wrote defining capitalism, we should be concerned with. We need to re-write the rules.

PS: I did not bring home your point. You said ma and pa can't make it, but they did and today, they are Walmart! ~i shake my head~ Not only did they make it, but they also can provide an avenue for other producers to grow. If you wish to see that as a dependency, I have nothing for you.

Oh and do you think you can click on that link, it might surprise you if you did. ~i shake my head again~
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:13 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,140,451 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
We agree on that. Where we seem to be at odds is responsibilities of the government defined beyond the bill of rights.
I am sure we do, I imagine our over all goals about how people should be treated are similar, I just think we have different paths to get there. I used to be a big government near socialist liberal, so I do understand things from that perspective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I do. Its not that corporate sponsorships are any secret. Or that politicians are shying away from "investing" their own millions.
To an extent yes, we do see some transparency but the average person has no idea about the influence of Pacs and various special interests. The problem I see with all of the rules and regulations is it actually creates more confusion and unintended consequences.

For example how do we regulate away volunteerism etc. A retired person has several more hours a day to volunteer and lobby for politicians who will bring them more benefits. The average worker with a family does not have the time but they may have a few dollars. In a political campaign volunteers are as beneficial as money.

Another example. My father-in-law is in a Union and he receives pension credits and various other perks for "volunteering" to man phone banks to get pro-union candidates elected. Even if the benefits were removed as long as Unions benefit from politicians, they will also have an upper hand, same with corporations.

Take away government granted benefits and we remove the incentive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I doubt it, but also depends on who qualifies as a true free marketeer. There are likes of Ron Paul who would generally be seen as such, but will there be support for strong government regulations from them? If anything, they propose government getting completely out of the way.
A lot of that depends on your definition of regulation and how you interpret the slogans being used. People like Ron Paul are rational personality types, they are metaphoric speakers and thinkers. Most people are concrete communicators, so when he says "get the government out", the average person hears chaos. Most true free marketers want the government out of "protection of privilege" as much as the "command and control". If corporations were liable for their actions both criminally and financially a lot of "regulations" would not be needed. As it is now we give them protection and privilege, we let them take the profit (after a convoluted tax system) and pass of the risk to the rest of us. Most regulations are nothing more than compromises created by lawyers, they placate us.

If the charters were clear as to the intent and liability of the corporation, "getting the government out of the way" would not be a bad thing at all. The risk would be on the company and it's executives. Adding a layer of having the company pay for the limited liability status of the owners would put even more pressure on the company to do things right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I doubt it, or during the course of humanity, we would have ample examples to see it put to practice. And even if some aspects could be, the natural self of people will show up and it will all be back to "normal".
Look into the crisis eras, we have made radical changes in very short amounts of time. This is a great book about these eras. Amazon.com: The Fourth Turning (9780767900461): William Strauss, Neil Howe: Books

Every crisis era has ended with a nation that changed radically from the era prior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
If you think government only has the role of a referee and without the ability to actually regulate anything, you would be one of those free marketeers opposed to government regulating via strict charters. This contradicts with your previous support, that regulations are authoritarian. Are you sure you're up for strict regulations on corporations? Or, would that be authoritarian?
A government referee would regulate a lot, they would punish those who cause harm and they would punish people who violate contracts (corporate charters). The shareholders would punish executives who took too much risk, or caused harm to others.

Look at what we have turned into, we used to have "Peace Officers", they would keep the peace and punish those who cause harm. Now we have "Law Enforcement Officers" who enforce laws pushed through due to majority rule. So now people who have caused no harm to others are punished for breaking laws. This is a bad direction to go because of the unintended consequences of arbitrary laws. It always leads to authoritarianism.

We will never have a "liberal" utopia because some people would rather give up their own freedoms to see to it that others don't have theirs. That is the dream of the elite, total control.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Austin
29,024 posts, read 15,627,739 times
Reputation: 7763
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
Sam Walton, although dead now, in 1950 opened Walton's 5&10 store in Bentonville, Arkansas. He and his wife opened the first Walmart store in 1962.

Again, what did Sam Walton a ma and pa operation have that no one else has as a ma and pa, that they can not succeed in today's, capital system of (supply and demand) markets?

People are trying to tell me, that ma and pa do not stand a chance today, I believe they do, not only stand a chance, but have the same opportunity they had then to achieve their goals. (baring miss management of their small business)

You are correct. This happens over and over by the thousands.
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Old 03-08-2011, 05:35 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,029,852 times
Reputation: 1396
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
7) Establish state-owned, worker-led businesses to compete with private firmsl
Most likely inefficient, sponsored by taxpayers "businesses" to compete with privet firms. Why do you want to rig the economy?
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