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Old 03-11-2011, 01:39 PM
 
15,397 posts, read 8,689,175 times
Reputation: 13779

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsmith365 View Post
One, it does NOT take money to cure anything; time and intellect, yes, but money...no. That is the big issue with capitalism; typically, with it comes greed. What it takes to find a cure for illnesses is knowledge, understanding, resources and motivation. The big problem is people "claim" natural resources as their own personal possession and, knowing people's need for it, hog it and sell to those in need of it. Next, if it takes monetary payment, aka material wealth, to "motivate" an individual, then a human being is far less than any "lower animal" on the planet. Cancer has not been "cured" since its discovery, which has been since capitalism has been in place. So, capitalism motivates nothing but personal gain.
Not to burst your bubble, but you don't know what you're talking about. Yes it DOES take money to cure something. You can thank those very government regulations that the OP thinks so highly of for that. Nothing gets done, with regards to researching something for the human good, without going through hoops with the government. And those hoops cost. A LOT.

As for claiming natural resources, I can't own land now? Don't think so.

And as for motivation, every creature on the planet requires motivation. From the highest to the lowest, they don't do anything unless there's a payoff somewhere. So you see, technically we are no different than any other organism on the planet. And in order to make something worth our while, there has to be a reward to motivate us. We've just put worth on paper as that reward. But it represents earning something.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:46 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,119,152 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
So, we should wait until Madoff type events show up, instead of being pro-active and writing laws that reduce the prospects? Instead, give financial managers to run a muck, as they wish, free of regulations?.
Where did I say anything close to that? I said the current regulations do NOTHING to try and be proactive about a Madoff. As someone said we have all the laws in the world, people going to the regulators and telling them he is a crook, yet nothing was done.

Part of the problem is most of the crooks are outside of the regulated industry. We pay the regulators to watch us but if you don't pay, don't get licensed or registered, they don't watch for you. Unfortunately it is nearly impossible stop most of these guys. As long as their are people with convincing stories and people willing to fall for a get rich story, these crimes will continue. Watch "American Greed" on CNBC, it is amazing what people fall for.

Madoff happened because he was the Advisor, he also owned the brokerage company that did the trades and he owned the accounting firm that audited the trades. I tell people, if you ever see an advisor that owns the brokerage company, run. You should have an advisor that uses a third party custodian (brokerage) that holds the funds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
But there are regulations and there are REGULATIONS. There are usually enough politicians to oppose regulations because that is how THEY gain power and push their ideology.
They don't oppose regulations, they just want THEIR regulations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
And you keep ignoring politicians who work hard to eliminate regulations because their corporate masters are the once to appease. Or, do you seriously believe no such politician exists??.
There are plenty of politicians who want to get THEIR regulations.

It seems like you think that all we need to do is find 51% of the population to vote for all the perfect politicians who agree with that 51% in 100% lock-step agreement, then everything will be solved with no unintended consequences.

And I am the Utopian?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I like the idea of a Utopian world, but know quite well of its impossibility as the reality. In the perfect world, we could even do away with government. No??.
Utopia is not an option. An even playing filed with few unintended consciouses is all we can hope for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
And crony capitalists like regulations? So, when major financial institutions were allowed to leverage at 30:1 or higher in 2005, were these crony capitalists the one suffering? Were crony capitalists supporting the idea of repealing Glass-Steagal act? Do crony capitalists enjoy the idea of regulatory reforms over Wall Streeters??.
Yes, everything you mention was a regulation, it covers 10's of thousands of pages and rules and laws. It becomes so convoluted and confusing that the crony capitalists and the lawyers on both sides hardly understand them, it is ripe for people to be able to play within the rules and make billions. The number one reason is because no one was at risk. Add risk back in and most of that would not have happened. Get the book The Big Short by Michael Lewis.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
People who immigrate to the USA are of two kinds. One, that arrive through illegal means, sometimes using lies. Two, that arrive legally. The latter kind has to deal with added bureaucracy because of the first kind (even though, it is realistic to believe the first kind can't be eliminated). Should we just go ahead and make sure the process is more relaxed and less painful because it affects the second kind??.
Not at all, no one is calling for force to become legal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Would have never happened corporate interests didn't take over the government over time. We're nearly two centuries too late.?.
How do you know the government didn't create the corporate interests to suit their needs? I don't care if they call themselves businessmen or politicians, it is the elitist control that is the problem. Don't get bogged down in finding which team did what, both teams suck.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
But there was a lot more to the corporate charters than that. Did you agree with the rest of what I mentioned??.
As long as it is not social engineering, I like it. Most old charters would suit me just fine. What were your examples again?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Adam Smith didn't propose the kind of "free market" you support. He presented a less than perfect view (realistic) of the world than you assume is possible.?.
I think that is your interpretation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
If we keep sending people who promote the idea that the government cannot do anything right, those sponsored by corporate interest, those who think government should give way to private enterprise, then we certainly deserve to be handled all the monstrosities out of no protection.

While there is no magic wand, that doesn't mean some basic regulations can't be put together, and let them evolve with time. A nation's defense can't predict all possibilities, doesn't void the need of its existence or that we don't need to be concerned about it until someone attacks.
I agree, hence why at the very minimum I want to see risk added back to corporate interests. Again, get to the core with very clear simple laws, not millions of pages of minutia that make it easy to exploit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Utopia.
See above about who is calling for Utopia.
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Old 03-11-2011, 01:52 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,119,152 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Not to burst your bubble, but you don't know what you're talking about. Yes it DOES take money to cure something. You can thank those very government regulations that the OP thinks so highly of for that. Nothing gets done, with regards to researching something for the human good, without going through hoops with the government. And those hoops cost. A LOT.

As for claiming natural resources, I can't own land now? Don't think so.

And as for motivation, every creature on the planet requires motivation. From the highest to the lowest, they don't do anything unless there's a payoff somewhere. So you see, technically we are no different than any other organism on the planet. And in order to make something worth our while, there has to be a reward to motivate us. We've just put worth on paper as that reward. But it represents earning something.
I agree with parts of what you are both saying. As far as land, yes, own away, just pay for the protection you receive from the government. http://geolib.com/essays/sullivan.dan/royallib.html
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:00 PM
 
Location: NE CT
1,496 posts, read 2,791,810 times
Reputation: 707
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
I'm sorry, but that's just not true. There's nothing exceptional about America -- it's just another country.
Why don't you try telling that to the Jews that were liberated by the US troops in 1945 from Dachau and other concentration camps? Why don't you try telling that to every nation that was enslaved by Hitler from 1939 -1945. Why don't you try telling that to every nation we have given millions and millions of dollars to in foreign aid? I could go on but someone has screwed your brain up about the US. We may not be the end all to be all, but we sure aren't "just another country". Go read some history there young fella.

You are incredibly naive.
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Tower of Heaven
4,023 posts, read 6,267,346 times
Reputation: 1438
Capitalism = best system ever
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:07 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,074 posts, read 5,128,088 times
Reputation: 5767
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post

....at the very minimum I want to see risk added back to corporate interests. Again, get to the core with very clear simple laws, not millions of pages of minutia that make it easy to exploit.

.
The common stockholders of General Motors and Lehman Brothers and Bear Sterns and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac received exactly ZERO for their investment. Many employees including high executives got their clocks cleaned. Preferred stockholders and bondholders in these companies are either wiped out or lost a substantial fraction. General Motors bondholders suffered the additional indignity of seeing a large portion of their potential partial recovery shunted off to union benefit plans.

So millions of investors would question the notion that corporate interests have been free of risk.
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Old 03-11-2011, 02:42 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,119,152 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
The common stockholders of General Motors and Lehman Brothers and Bear Sterns and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac received exactly ZERO for their investment. Many employees including high executives got their clocks cleaned. Preferred stockholders and bondholders in these companies are either wiped out or lost a substantial fraction. General Motors bondholders suffered the additional indignity of seeing a large portion of their potential partial recovery shunted off to union benefit plans.

So millions of investors would question the notion that corporate interests have been free of risk.
How many of the executives paid back their bonuses they earned off the risk they took on behalf of the shareholders and employees? How many of the executives are in jail? How many executives and shareholders paid back the tax payers for the losses occurred due to their high risk?
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Old 03-11-2011, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Some T-1 Line
520 posts, read 816,272 times
Reputation: 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Not to burst your bubble, but you don't know what you're talking about. Yes it DOES take money to cure something. You can thank those very government regulations that the OP thinks so highly of for that. Nothing gets done, with regards to researching something for the human good, without going through hoops with the government. And those hoops cost. A LOT.

As for claiming natural resources, I can't own land now? Don't think so.

And as for motivation, every creature on the planet requires motivation. From the highest to the lowest, they don't do anything unless there's a payoff somewhere. So you see, technically we are no different than any other organism on the planet. And in order to make something worth our while, there has to be a reward to motivate us. We've just put worth on paper as that reward. But it represents earning something.
Ringwise, I'd like to reciprocate those feels. First off, taking the government out of the equation because - as most have stated on this thread - the government and capitalism are two totally separate things. Second, there's no charge for information; City Data is a good example of that. There's a bunch of people giving free advice on CD. So, something as simple as teaching someone how to eat healthy and give healthy cooking recipes or exercise tips takes a lot of government red tape and money to do? You can't just post it on the Internet in a thread, start a blog on one of the many blog sites or create an e-book and make it readily available? The same goes for any information; all it takes is time.

If you remove money out of the equation, you mean to tell me that not one of the 6 billion people on this earth would be productive?

I think you are reaching on so many levels. Additionally, I think you are a little p--sed off because I respectfully disagreed and stated that you were "out of line", which you were and which you are in stating in your humble opinion that I don't know what I am talking about.

Every creature does need motivation; I will agree to some extent. But, unlike you, not everyone is self-loathing or materialistic. Some people do things for other ignorant and barbaric reasons...like empathy, compassion, or just for the sake of challenging oneself to see if they can do it. Not everyone climbs a mountain to get an endorsement. Some people actually mountain climb for the rush, to challenge themselves, or just because they got tired of sitting in the house and playing Playstation all day. Others actually get enlightened from their experience and maybe figure out something about the human body and get so excited that they learned something about themselves and the human body that they actually share that information for free. Tell me you haven't gotten so excited that you learned how to fix a flat tire or install some software that you passed that information on "just because".

There's nothing wrong with you thinking that you "own" land; I'd just like to see you take it with you when you part this earthly world (please note, I wish you a long, happy and prosperous lifetime).

In summary, I think I do know what I am talking about and I think that you are off-base or maybe mixing your topics up. As an example:

1) Google gives away plenty of free information in the form of a free search engine (at least, free for consumers and costly for advertisers)

2) I just watched a youtube video where someone gave me free advice on how to change my in-cabin air filter. Nissan wanted to charge me $98 bucks to do so, I did it for $5 (the cost of the air-filter @ autozone after watching the video)

3) I just learned how to build a deck and do some good plumbing and electrical from youtube, the Internet and DIY/HGTV

4) The government has these places called libraries that allow me to access the Internet and do all of this stuff if my personal Internet is not working or if I could not afford the Internet. By the way, their books are free, too. I can borrow them and return them for the next person to use. But, some of us hate socialism, so I'll move on to my next example

5) I first got introduced to City Data because a lot of users were giving me and my wife free advice on relocating to Raleigh, NC and what areas to move to and what schools are great. I even started a thread about problems with my Nissan Murano and got a lot of free advice

You see, there's a bunch of people not motivated by making a buck; it's just unfortunate that you don't seem to know any of them. Most disappointing is that you, in fact, can't seem to understand that.

Last edited by ajsmith365; 03-11-2011 at 05:45 PM..
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Some T-1 Line
520 posts, read 816,272 times
Reputation: 448
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Not to burst your bubble, but you don't know what you're talking about. Yes it DOES take money to cure something. You can thank those very government regulations that the OP thinks so highly of for that. Nothing gets done, with regards to researching something for the human good, without going through hoops with the government. And those hoops cost. A LOT.

As for claiming natural resources, I can't own land now? Don't think so.

And as for motivation, every creature on the planet requires motivation. From the highest to the lowest, they don't do anything unless there's a payoff somewhere. So you see, technically we are no different than any other organism on the planet. And in order to make something worth our while, there has to be a reward to motivate us. We've just put worth on paper as that reward. But it represents earning something.
I got a few scenarios for you, bigshot.

SCENARIO #1: You and a group of friends went on a camping trip. The closest town is 60 miles back. You are an experienced outdoor survivalist. Someone packed everything except the matches. What do you do?

a) Use your survival skills to start a fire for you and your friends
b) Get in the car and drive 60 miles to go and buy some matches


SCENARIO #2: You and 2 other people are shipwrecked on a deserted island (think Tom Hanks in "Castaway"). You and your friends have zero carpenter skills. What do you do?

a) start cutting and building (something. anything)
b) create some money out of seashells and palm leaves to incentivize one another
c) wait for the government to show up and give you laws and regulations for your survival

SCENARIO #3: You have a slight, sore throat. You have some lemon trees in your back yard with some juicy, ripe lemons on them and you just so happen to have access to some honey. Oh, yeah...you have running water and an operating kitchen in your house. You also have a garden with cloves, garlic, ginger, and some other good stuff. What do you do?

1) Open ended answer (I'll let you decide)
2) Go buy some Chloraseptic, Tylenol and whatever else is in the pharmacy isle
3) You wait for the government to come and tell you what you can and cannot take

SCENARIO #4: You can't figure out how to configure your new iPhone to sync up with your Gmail account. What do you do?

1) Wait for the government to come and tell you how to program it
2) Go to Best Buy and pay their Geek Squad to program it for you
3) Go on the Internet (Youtube, Google, City Data, etc.) and find out how to do it yourself
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Old 03-11-2011, 06:00 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,074 posts, read 5,128,088 times
Reputation: 5767
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajsmith365 View Post
I got a few scenarios for you, bigshot.

SCENARIO #1: You and a group of friends went on a camping trip. The closest town is 60 miles back. You are an experienced outdoor survivalist. Someone packed everything except the matches. What do you do?

a) Use your survival skills to start a fire for you and your friends
b) Get in the car and drive 60 miles to go and buy some matches


SCENARIO #2: You and 2 other people are shipwrecked on a deserted island (think Tom Hanks in "Castaway"). You and your friends have zero carpenter skills. What do you do?

a) start cutting and building (something. anything)
b) create some money out of seashells and palm leaves to incentivize one another
c) wait for the government to show up and give you laws and regulations for your survival

SCENARIO #3: You have a slight, sore throat. You have some lemon trees in your back yard with some juicy, ripe lemons on them and you just so happen to have access to some honey. Oh, yeah...you have running water and an operating kitchen in your house. You also have a garden with cloves, garlic, ginger, and some other good stuff. What do you do?

1) Open ended answer (I'll let you decide)
2) Go buy some Chloraseptic, Tylenol and whatever else is in the pharmacy isle
3) You wait for the government to come and tell you what you can and cannot take

SCENARIO #4: You can't figure out how to configure your new iPhone to sync up with your Gmail account. What do you do?

1) Wait for the government to come and tell you how to program it
2) Go to Best Buy and pay their Geek Squad to program it for you
3) Go on the Internet (Youtube, Google, City Data, etc.) and find out how to do it yourself
So what's your point? You can google for the cure to muscular dystrophy, or treat cancer with info you get on a chat board? Good luck with that!

Here's a couple scenarios for you: your family needs to eat, so you go to the grocery store, select appropriate items, and pay with what? Or you need a car, so you find a willing seller with a suitable vehicle, and you pay with what? (hint: free advice from your brother-in-law is not legal tender.)
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