U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 03-14-2011, 03:46 PM
 
Location: it depends
6,074 posts, read 5,126,393 times
Reputation: 5767

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
So says the slave master to the slave.

.....That "work hard" philosophy is a myth. No one works harder than the ditch digger, and no one will find themselves in a deeper hole, faster.


When an alleged free market economy degrades to the level of corruption that currently exists today, "connections" are far more important than education, with strategy and a more liberal interpretation of integrity far more important than work ethic.
Guy, I will agree with you on one thing: "work hard" is not as valuable as "work smart." Effectiveness is the desired trait, not quantity of effort expended.

I am an employer. The key, overriding, be-all and end-all in my shop is integrity. My employees are free to make mistakes (I make plenty) but they have to own both the mistake and the fix for the mistake, bring it to light and take care of it. When I find this character trait, I pay for it to try to nail it down. The last person I hired, about 15 months ago, is carrying 1 1/2 months' paychecks in his wallet, uncashed--I guess he doesn't need them but he's getting a mid-year bonus anyway. I would venture to guess that most employers feel the same way about top-notch employees.

The "slave" talk and dismissal of anything that people can do to make themselves more valuable is defeatist, negative, wrong, and totally non-productive. I don't care who you are or where you are, you can write down three things that would make you more valuable to others and put them into effect. If "connections" are important in your career, resolving to make some good ones would probably deserve a place on the list. Pissing and moaning is not likely to be as helpful.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-14-2011, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Austin
28,968 posts, read 15,531,611 times
Reputation: 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Define "opportunity". Does being in a better financial position play any role?

The role of government is to protect individual rights. Government's only responsibility is to protect the rights of the individual, by banning the initiation of force, thus making all relations between men peaceful, i.e., free from the threat of violence and fraud.

Government should not be concerned with the circumstances around one's birth. It should not be concerned that some are born with less talent than others or that some grow up in a family that has less money than others.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Austin
28,968 posts, read 15,531,611 times
Reputation: 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcopolo View Post
You're welcome, and thank you for your concern about my brain.

Here are the things that help build wealth that are free: effective attitudes, strong work ethic, healthy habits, desire to learn, commitment to meet the needs of the market (whether the market for one's labor, or for a product or service one might provide).

I didn't need equal opportunity, I needed AN opportunity. Could I start a bank, or car dealership, or retail store, or restaurant? Nope, didn't have the capital. Could I go be a doctor or CPA or lawyer? Not without the required education, which I was unwilling to invest in. The car dealer's son, the fellow that inherited bank stock, the doctor's daughter...THEY had opportunities that were denied to me.

I spent zero time lamenting the opportunities that I did not have, and now I count among my clients bankers and car dealers and store owners and doctors and CPA's and lawyers. I used the wealth-builders that were free to me, and are still free to anyone.
I agree with most of your post, but not the part where you didn't have an opportunity to be a car dealer or open a restaurant. Millions of people start their own business on a shoestring with no help from mom and dad. The obvious extremes are Michael Dell and Bill Gates.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Austin
28,968 posts, read 15,531,611 times
Reputation: 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
When an alleged free market economy degrades to the level of corruption that currently exists today, "connections" are far more important than education, with strategy and a more liberal interpretation of integrity far more important than work ethic.

In other words, our current dog eat dog, cutthroat economy is more likely to reward ruthlessness and a lack of integrity, than it will recognize hard work and honesty.

But that's why we have governments.... to protect individual rights... to protect against unlawful actions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 04:52 PM
 
8,797 posts, read 5,338,690 times
Reputation: 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post

The individual poor today are -- 20 years from now -- thanks to capitalism/free-market -- very likely to be in the middle and even upper-classes. These "poor" are usually young people just starting out, or those who, yes, are suffering temporary set-backs. But they won't be there for long.
You cannot be serious. I shudder to think that anyone could believe such patently false nonsense given EVERY measurable data point that shows growing levels of poor, a disappearing middle class, and a state which shows the ultra rich possessing an unprecedented level of the share of overall wealth. That's the current state of things ... the only legitimate debate is how it got that way, and what, if anything should be done to provide a little better balance.

Now, don't go get all foolish and call me a liberal ... because I'm not at all liberal in the economic sense, nor do I advocate a socialist style economy. What I am suggesting is that we have evolved into a "winner take all" society, and this is no more in the best interests of the winners than it is for the losers.

Picture a neighborhood where you have nice apartments, nice smaller homes, larger homes for the expanding family, and yes ... the mansions for those who have become the most successful. This is a neighborhood in which all of your neighbors are moderately to highly successful, and operating from a stable base.

Now picture a neighborhood in which the smaller and larger homes are disappearing, and being replaced by gated mansions, and a whole lot of cheap apartments. Which neighborhood do you think is more desirable and provides the best environment for everyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb View Post
Now then, on the other hand? If you want to see the result of government in the equastion, then just live in a Section 8 housing complex sometime. Many if not most of these folks are not the victims of unfortunate circumstances, but there by their own life-choices. And, worse, have a sense of entitlement (courtesy of the welfare state and well-meaning liberals) and no incentive at all to improve their own lot in life. That experience will quickly disabuse that idealistic image of the "poor" always being victims.
First, it seems to be a very broad generalization you are applying here. No doubt there are many reasons why people are less successful than others, including personal failure. But it's absurd to say most are at fault. There is a wide range of people in this world of varying capabilities ... some more intelligent than others ... some more talented ... some more physically gifted. There is no such thing as equal opportunity in the presence of unequal ability. Consequently, there must be a baseline established that guarantees everyone willing to put forth effort on their own behalf, the fundamental necessities of survival that would then allow them to pursue greater prosperity at levels commensurate with their individual abilities, desire, and drive. That would be equal and fair opportunity.

For example, a janitor might very well live a life fulfilling to them, taking pleasure in purpose which to another would be worse than a death sentence, so long as they are compensated fairly. All of the jobs which must be done for a smoothly operating society ... garbage collector to police officer ... city administrator to the local Dentist all provide a valuable service to everyone else .... and shouldn't have to worry about the fundamentals of survival, such as food and shelter. And, the idea of applying a one size fits all solution to education is a major contributing factor in guaranteeing many examples of failure right from the start.

When referring to education, I mean it in the broad sense of teaching life skills, rather than memorizing such silliness as who was the King of Persia in the distant past. Poverty is a cycle ... poverty breeds poverty, just as surely as success breeds success. It is the way our universe works ... successful mindsets, practices, attitudes and philosophies produce much better results than do poor practices, poverty consciousness, and the resulting sense of hopelessness, which virtually guarantees failure. Our education system fails miserably to address such things while focusing on nonsense of no practical value.

Show me a dog that urinates and defecates inside the house, and I'll show that this is not a bad dog, just a poorly trained dog who unfortunately belongs to an ignorant owner. Children, likewise, brought up in poverty are far more likely to live out their entire lives in poverty, compared to a child born in a more advantageous and abundant environment.

Would you blame the young adult for his or her lack of self esteem after discovering that they were taught from the time they were able to walk that they were stupid ... no good ... couldn't do anything right ... constantly criticized as a child growing up? Would you blame the child born with a physical disability for not becoming a star athlete in school?

You cannot blame the Tomato plant for failing to produce attractive, delicious fruit from poor soil, lack of moisture, and not enough sunshine. People are the same ... they are most often products of their environment, and victims of a system that leaves all but the most gifted, most talented, and most prepared, left behind, with poorer soil, lack of water and proper sunshine.

We have a completely backassward system ... the less wealthy, lower income folks are required to pay the highest interest rates on a home or car loan, while the wealthy pay much less. The homeless person is chased away from the dumpster behind the restaurant as he looks for some scraps of food, while the Restaurant owner may wave the entire dinner bill for a local celebrity patron who has more money than they'll ever be able to spend. The list of these things are endless.

We have seniors who cannot afford to heat their homes because property taxes are chewing up their fixed incomes, and oil companies are raking in record profits. We have wealthy seniors receiving Social Security who may be using that money to pay the slip rent on their 40 ft cabin cruiser, while another senior goes hungry.

The welfare system is just as backwards. It rewards laziness and irresponsibility while punishing those who would choose to work but can't afford to because to do so, they would lose more benefits than the work income provided them. The system rewards the welfare mother at greater levels, the more children they produce.

With all of this going on .... you want to say that the poor deserve what they get, because it's their own fault they are poor?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Southern Minnesota
5,990 posts, read 11,200,454 times
Reputation: 3195
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
Well, if he had half a brain and he worked and saved for 30 years, he would be fine. If, on the other hand, he lived above his means, he would be in trouble.

Hard work is more important than intelligence. I have seen very intelligent people (who were lazy) flunk out of college and or med school, while less intelligent hard working individuals prospered. Mark Twain has noted that great goals can be accomplished by incrementalism- break up your tasks into a series of small tasks and you will be more successful.

Apparently you are very young. When I was young, I was flat broke. However, I did not focus on economics and wealth as my ultimate goal, as apparently you do, and I prospered as a result. Life is more than the pursuit wealth- wealth will come to those who work hard and remain focused.

I would be willing to bet that if you had worked hard, attained a useful degree, and prospered that you would have an entirely different attitude. Socialism is for losers who have failed or have convinced themselves that they can never compete. Thank goodness I have instilled some confidence in my children so that I do not have to hear that whiney stuff in my home. I can guarantee you that I came from a worse econmic background than you, but worked hard instead of whining and complaining about my situation. Man up.
I am not young. I'm really tired of hearing that. Why do you think it is so impossible for a grown man who's experienced life to support socialism? I'm not a kid.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 05:13 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,012,369 times
Reputation: 1396
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
I'm not a kid.
You come off as one in some of your posts though.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 05:25 PM
 
1,811 posts, read 926,049 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by actonbell View Post
The age of the 'new norm' is upon us. Your description of it is dead on.
Not really, it is just "dead", as in DOA, foolish mutterings from the patron saint of Club "L".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Austin
28,968 posts, read 15,531,611 times
Reputation: 7718
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Stop. Take a deeeep breath. Now listen up.

The Great Depression was CAUSED by the actions of the Federal Reserve and the Government ... which is ironic, since the FED was created to prevent such an occurrence.

Rather than go into long details, watch this brief but accurate account of what happened, including the prolonging of the depression by FDR's policies.

Many modern historical economists believe that it was poor decision making and failed monetary policy that caused the Great Depression. In all truthfulness, it was not failed policy ... it was successful policy. The FED hoarded Gold coming in from Europe, refusing to issue corresponding amounts of liquid cash into the US economy, causing an unnecessary yet purposeful contraction of the money supply, resulting in bank failures, business failures, and skyrocketing unemployment. And it was purposeful. Why? Consolidation. A very select few became ULTRA MEGA WEALTHY, including the Gangsters running the Federal Reserve, and their cronies.

FDR exacerbated the problems, and inflicted even more economic misery upon the American people by his 1933 confiscation of gold, under the guise of preventing "hoarding", of all things. Quite a rich irony, since it was the Federal Reserve hoarding of gold that created the depression in the first place.

You won't learn any of this in the public schools. The only way to become accurately educated is to make your own book choices, rather than let someone else tell you which books to read.

Excellent! And a little freighting when you compare today to 1934.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-14-2011, 05:38 PM
 
15,387 posts, read 8,684,668 times
Reputation: 13775
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
What about the man who works his tail off for 30 years, gets laid off, can't find another job because of age discrimination and runs out of his 99 weeks of unemployment? Is he now lazy?

Hard work doesn't guarantee success.
Do you know that person? Or are you just making stuff up. And if you really know him, is it really age discrimination that keeps him unemployed? Or that he's just not that good at his job. Or has a skill that is antiquated. Years ago I worked with a woman that hated computers. Wouldn't touch them. When the office went totally computerized, she was let go. And tried to sue because of age discrimination. Why has this man worked 30 years, with not much to show for it?

Maybe this so-called man is lazy. There ARE jobs out there. You just have to be willing to do something you may not love. Oh well, gotta eat.

Yes, hard work does guarantee success. But the definition of "hard work" and "success" are open to interpretation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top