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Old 03-17-2011, 10:13 AM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,129,048 times
Reputation: 2840

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffington View Post
I find that talking rationally with libs is pointless, useless and frustrating beyond description. Facts mean nothing to them, historical precedent means nothing to them. All that matters is their pathetic get-evenism attended by their name calling.

I am fighting to save my country from the horde of takers and destroyers, and to be honest, when you are fighting for your life, or the life of your country, no holds are barred (save those of the forum). If rational logic fails, I use their tactics, i.e. flaming them.

Anyway, accept my apologies for confusing you with someone else.
I think we are all want the same goals, it is just some people get caught up in getting even. That does not mean they are hopeless, I have had great success in getting people on the left to at least realize some of their solutions are wrong.

Part of the problem is you are trying to use rational big picture words and phrases with concrete communicators. When you say to someone something like "end welfare", most concrete communicators see that to mean starvation and dying poor people. When a abstract or metaphorical communicator hears that, they extrapolate out all of the nuances of private charities, people finding work, etc.

If you can walk people through the steps of an issue as opposed to just giving concrete statements, you will have much more success at winning people over.

Check out the works of Dr. Keirsey at www.keirsey.com he wrote a great book about this called "Please Understand Me". You will notice on his site that about 75% of the population are concrete communicators.

Do your self a favor and learn this stuff, it will save you a lot of grief. (I am an Idealist based on Keirseys work)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Make sure you add Weather Underground, the New Black Panthers, and unions to your list, then.
They are just groups within authoritarian party structures, same as KKK etc.
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Old 03-17-2011, 01:54 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,019,037 times
Reputation: 1396
Quote:
Originally Posted by rural lady View Post
I agree with you, that's what its all about corporations and politics, corporations don't give a damn about the people, its profits and more money, thats their bottom line. Its been going on for years & years, the politicans got their hands into the corporations pockets also. Sure, they can all hide their money, we can't, we don't have that much that we need to hide it, can't blame Obama for that, I just bought eye medication, $80.00 thats way out of line & greed.
Yeah, screw corporations! Let's all work for the government for food and shelter while communist China funds our socialist utopia.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:04 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,129,048 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirdik View Post
Yeah, screw corporations! Let's all work for the government for food and shelter while communist China funds our socialist utopia.
It doesn't have to be either extreme. We just need corporations to be liable for their actions, or pay us for the limited liability we provide them. If they did not receive so many government protections and privileges, most people who not have any problem with them.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:19 PM
 
Location: North Carolina
572 posts, read 1,363,993 times
Reputation: 489
Capitalism is simply the exchanging of goods and services. Some liberals get all worked up because they can't compete in a free market economy and they think their inability to compete equals some sort of economic injustice. The OP went on a rant about getting healthcare and a "living wage" from American corporations, as if they are in business to provide him with those services.

The bottom line is you will most likely get paid what you are worth. That's why doctors make more money than ditch diggers. If you don't like your economic status in life then go get yourself a better education. If you don't like the way your employer is treating you then QUIT.

The alternative is simple. Abandon capitalism and get on the government dole and doom yourself to a life of mediocrity. Personally I don't realy care which one the American left chooses. Just quit you whining.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:19 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,019,037 times
Reputation: 1396
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
It doesn't have to be either extreme. We just need corporations to be liable for their actions, or pay us for the limited liability we provide them. If they did not receive so many government protections and privileges, most people who not have any problem with them.
Again the problem is the government not corporations.
Corporations are as powerful as the government allows them to be.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:31 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,019,037 times
Reputation: 1396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time2Travel View Post
Capitalism is simply the exchanging of goods and services. Some liberals get all worked up because they can't compete in a free market economy and they think their inability to compete equals some sort of economic injustice. The OP went on a rant about getting healthcare and a "living wage" from American corporations, as if they are in business to provide him with those services.

The bottom line is you will most likely get paid what you are worth. That's why doctors make more money than ditch diggers. If you don't like your economic status in life then go get yourself a better education. If you don't like the way your employer is treating you then QUIT.

The alternative is simple. Abandon capitalism and get on the government dole and doom yourself to a life of mediocrity. Personally I don't realy care which one the American left chooses. Just quit you whining.
Yes, capitalism is freedom to choose.
If you're not satisfied with what you get in exchange for your labor you have at least two choices.
You can improve quality of your labor or you can find a place where current quality of your labor is valued higher.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:47 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,652 posts, read 7,129,048 times
Reputation: 2840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Time2Travel View Post
Capitalism is simply the exchanging of goods and services. Some liberals get all worked up because they can't compete in a free market economy and they think their inability to compete equals some sort of economic injustice. The OP went on a rant about getting healthcare and a "living wage" from American corporations, as if they are in business to provide him with those services.

The bottom line is you will most likely get paid what you are worth. That's why doctors make more money than ditch diggers. If you don't like your economic status in life then go get yourself a better education. If you don't like the way your employer is treating you then QUIT.

The alternative is simple. Abandon capitalism and get on the government dole and doom yourself to a life of mediocrity. Personally I don't realy care which one the American left chooses. Just quit you whining.
I agree with your overall theme regarding competing but in our current situation we are very far from a free market. Corporations receive massive amounts of government protections and perks, we have a debt based currency system and we have a tax system that favors and benefits the elite. (note I did not say high income earners)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirdik View Post
Again the problem is the government not corporations.
Corporations are as powerful as the government allows them to be.
It is deeper than that, the core of the system has been corrupted by the elite both in government and private. We need to fix a lot of systemic issues such as our debt based monetary system, our current model for taxing productivity instead of taxing government granted and protected privilege and our shifting of risk.

These three things would radically change our country and put everyone on an even playing field with much more opportunity and much less antagonism.
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Old 03-17-2011, 02:50 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,019,037 times
Reputation: 1396
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilgi View Post
It is deeper than that, the core of the system has been corrupted by the elite both in government and private. We need to fix a lot of systemic issues such as our debt based monetary system, our current model for taxing productivity instead of taxing government granted and protected privilege and our shifting of risk.

These three things would radically change our country and put everyone on an even playing field with much more opportunity and much less antagonism.
I agree with what you're saying. Crony capitalism is clearly damaging our economy.
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:07 PM
 
959 posts, read 1,119,141 times
Reputation: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoopilot View Post
Capitalism sucks. Period. I know that may sound shocking, but it's true -- at least of unregulated, laissez-faire "free market" capitalism. It screws the poor and middle class out of a decent living, while enriching the corporations that send our jobs overseas and making the fat cats even fatter. It is a disgusting, evil system based upon greed and avarice. It is based on the lust for more, more, MORE while stopping at nothing to feed that desire.

In a capitalist system, corporate execs will slash thousands of American jobs to add a few pennies to their annual bonuses. They will send skilled jobs to China and Cambodia, laying off American workers and forcing children to work in sweatshops for pennies per day. These soulless organizations will sell out American workers to save a pittance, reaping record profits while we grow more and more desperate. If people here are fortunate enough to keep their jobs, they'll see their wages slashed, pensions cut and benefits scaled back. When unions try to stand up for workers rights, the government moves in to bust the unions in the name of "saving money" (look at what's happening in Wisconsin). However, raising taxes on the rich and corporations is out of the question. The government gives corporate behemoths tax breaks and exemptions and even bailouts while cutting essential services like education and unemployment benefits. It is disgusting.

It's not just about jobs either. Take healthcare. A man works hard, goes to college, and gets a good job with health benefits. If he loses his "good job," he'll be out of luck, becoming one of the millions of uninsured Americans. At least in almost any other developed country, you don't have to worry about lacking health insurance because you lose your job. Also, what of all the people with pre-existing conditions - the private health insurance companies look for ways to deny them.

People keep talking about "high taxes" and how they don't want to pay taxes. I really don't get this. I'd rather pay higher taxes and get better services than save money on taxes and have to fight the corporate machine to get essential services like healthcare. I'd rather tax the living crap out of the rich and corporations to ensure everyone gets a free education, a living-wage job, a home, unlimited unemployment insurance and guaranteed access to free or very low-cost healthcare and prescription drugs.
Those Cubans who risk their lives at shark infested seas to get to the U.S do not think capitalism sucks. If they thought capitalism sucks, they would have never left their country in the first place. They obviously do not like Castro style government.
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Old 03-17-2011, 03:19 PM
 
1,811 posts, read 928,230 times
Reputation: 503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Blood View Post
Those Cubans who risk their lives at shark infested seas to get to the U.S do not think capitalism sucks. If they thought capitalism sucks, they would have never left their country in the first place. They obviously do not like Castro style government.
NOBODY who has every lived under a socialist, communist or other non-capitalist system likes it. Some may tolerate it, but given the facts and the option, most would flee to capitalism, and many do in innertubes, crammed in ocean containers, in car trunks etc.

Only the whiners and losers in the US bemoan it, and actually, they are actually condeming their own status as perpetual losers, while blaming capitalism for their failures.
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