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Old 03-06-2011, 05:18 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,655,914 times
Reputation: 9357

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Why certainly. IIHS-HLDI: Crash Testing*&*Highway Safety Examples abound.
That doesnt indicate that smaller cars are on a whole, safer than larger ones..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Wouldn't dream of it. Some SUVs are quite safe, some aren't. Some smaller cars are quite safe, some aren't. "SUVs are safer" is an imprecise blanket statement.
That is a complete avoidance of the question..
Again to recap
Another poster said smaller cars were safer and they used Europe as an example to justify their rationality..
And when I pointed out that Europeans drive 1/2 of what we do to places like work, their reply was that some areas in Europe have higher fatality rates than others because they are poor and they have "special" cars not available elsewhere.. (my synopsis)
So then my response to this other poster was to ask them if they think poorer people are buying SUV's, since according to them, SUV's are far more dangerous than smaller cars...
They havent responded..
This is when you jumped in to defend their position, and tried to confirm that smaller cars are safer than larger ones using a Prius and a Hummer.

Again, if smaller cars are safer than larger ones, then why does the IIHS list ONE small car on their safest list, and 43 SUVs?

I'd like an answer if you reply and not an avoidance of the question. CLEARLY, on a whole, SUVS are FAR safer than smaller cars, or there would be smaller cars on the list..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
That's an interesting idea for a statistic, but is has nothing to with the cite in your article. That's "driver deaths per million registered vehicle years". Of course the Acura RSX is going to score high in that statistic - targeted directly at the 18-25 male demographic, and you can ask any insurance actuary what sort of risk they are.

Here's the full report that your source lifted his figures from: http://www.iihs.org/externaldata/srdata/docs/sr4204.pdf - it's good reading. Even documents how SUVs figured a new way to kill their drivers, by making rollover accidents a statistically significant cause of death. (In fairness, that has been engineered out of modern SUVs.)
It has EVERYTHING to do with the topic that was being discussed.. Again, see my previous paragraph.. And what part of that report indicates that smaller cars are safer than SUV's?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Cite, apart from your gut feeling? Wait, not necessary.

IIHS offset frontal collision rating for the H3: Acceptable.
IIHS offset frontal collision rating for the Prius: Good.

Good is better than acceptable. And, to reiterate, these results come from actually crashing the vehicles. (The H2 was never made available for IIHS testing. But I'm sure it would have been a paragon of safety.)
And yet you havent explained why ONE small car made the list of "safest" vehicles and 43 SUVS made it.. Still waiting for you to explain how less cars on the safest list = safest..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Newton described the relationships between mass, speed and energy. For non-relativistic speeds, those are universally true. "mass, coupled with acceleration, determines the force of a crash" is just not true.
its absolutely true.. Newton did not research the difference between a small car and a large SUV.. He was discussing ALL THINGS being equal.. Clearly you are not telling me that all things are equal between different cars, even if they are traveling at the same speed.. are you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
That's possibly even dumber.
Maybe to those who dont comprehend..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Yeah, well. Two problems, here. Sadly, the laws of physics aren't kind enough to make sure that every possible joule of energy is absorbed by the vehicle before any is transferred to the passengers. A heavy, but rigid vehicle is much worse than a light one designed to crumple in a controlled manner. Which was the point of the APC vs. car comparison. An M113 is super-rigid (armored, right?) and won't crumple worth a damn. Hence it just stops, and everything inside of it suffers the full deceleration of the collision. A modern car will crumple and in doing so both absorbs part of the collision energy and makes for a gentler deceleration.
Wrong.. even larger vehicles are designed to crumble.. Do you pretend they are designed to be a steel cage. If they werent safer, then how again, did so many of them make the IIHS SAFEST list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Well, don't bring up cospeed and acceleration if you're not prepared to debate it, then.
I didnt.. we were discussing whats considered safer and what isnt.. IIHS AGAIN says suvs are safer than smaller cars.. they list FORTY THREE SUV's safe, and only 1 small car safe.. Can you tell me which is later, 43 or 1?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
You've stated that flat-out 3 or 4 times now, yet when the IIHS crashes vehicles, counterexamples abound. The Prius driver stands a better chance in a frontal collision with a stationary object than the H3 driver does. This has been demonstrated by actually crashing samples of both cars.
We are discussing SUV's in general, not Hummers.. Dont pick and choose ONE vehicle to make the argument.. again, if you think smaller vehicles are safer, and you accept the IIHS results, then why do they list FORTY THREE SUV's as safe, and only 1, mini car on the safest list?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Selective laws of physics again? Sorry, it doesn't work that way.

A well-designed vehicle - light or heavy - will deform to absorb energy and make the deceleration less abrupt, but pure mass doesn't help. The car that's twice as heavy will also have exactly twice as much energy to disperse somehow. .
And yet reports posted say you are wrong.

And then again.. If you think smaller vehicles are safer because they dont have the weight to disperse, then again tell me why the IIHS only lists ONE mini vehicle as "safest", and FORTY THREE SUV's as "safest"...

I've asked this question numers times, you've avoided it now just as many..

Will you answer, or will you avoid the question again?
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:24 PM
 
47,314 posts, read 24,671,082 times
Reputation: 14471
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
My SUV has more HP than a car, faster than a car, corners better than a car.... I suppose if you drove the biggest SUV you could find but then what did you expect... even then these new SUVs don't lumber around... but then you must be a really reckless driver if you complain an SUV is lame and lumbering... ironic...
If you have an SUV NOT named Porsche Cayenne, then you're full of it. Sure, most have big HP....they need it to push all that weight down the road.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:28 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,655,914 times
Reputation: 9357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Dear me, when did I ever claim that?

You asked for a scenario. "JUST ONE", if I recall correctly. I gave you one.

Please, do cite where I've claimed that "smaller cars are safer". You can't, and you full well know it. So please have the courtesy to not ascribe that viewpoint to me, mmkay?
My dear Dane.. you JUST said I was wrong a second ago AGAIN, when I said that SUV's were safer, and you denied it..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
Wouldn't dream of it. Some SUVs are quite safe, some aren't. Some smaller cars are quite safe, some aren't. "SUVs are safer" is an imprecise blanket statement.
Are you following along in your own postings? If SUVs arent safer then why did 43 of them make the "safest" list and ONE mini car make it?

Are you now admitting that SUV's are safer on a whole than small cars because that is what started this discussion, I said they were, and I sighted numerous sources to support that, and you went off on some tangent questioning the sources and going on some discussion about Newton..
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:39 PM
 
4,743 posts, read 8,451,575 times
Reputation: 4028
desertdetroiter = "The back seat of an Explorer is no larger than the back seat of a Taurus. You can easily fit two car seats and a booster seat in the back seat of a Taurus. That's just the truth.

And the front seat of an Explorer is no more comfortable than the front seats and leg room of a Taurus either."

= "If you use the 3rd row seat in an Explorer, then you have no storage space."

In addition to the Explorer, I have an old Taurus (I plan to run the wheels off it). I know that I cannot 'easily' fit two car seats and a booster seat in the back seat of the Taurus (thus the Explorer), and that the Explorer is way more comfortable (but it's also like 10 years newer).

EDIT - I went out and measured the back seats of both the Taurus and the Explorer - both about 53.5 inches (I was kinda surprised) - however Explorer's seats are 'flatter' - the Taurus has side bolsters and humps that interfere with car seats - plus there's the difference in head room.

As for storage, I've never used the roof rack, but I usually take 2 adults and 3 or 4 kids to the beach for a week - everything fits fine (we pack light and swimsuits don't take up much room, but towels, fishing nets, boards, coolers, &c sure do).

With the seats folded down, I can move furniture, appliances, and all kinds of stuff - I traded in a Ford Ranger small truck for the Explorer so the utility was important.

My next vehicle purchase will be a Ford SUV, or maybe an F150 supercrew.

Oh yeah, I've also got an old Porsche that's not much use for hauling kids but if me having 'too many' cars bothers even one leftie then I'm happy.

Last edited by Reactionary; 03-06-2011 at 06:53 PM..
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:44 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,655,914 times
Reputation: 9357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reactionary View Post
With the seats folded down, I can move furniture, appliances, and all kinds of stuff - I traded in a Ford Ranger small truck for the Explorer so the utility was important.
Thats just it.. I was driving down the road the other day on my way to Home Depot to buy a metal rack, and sure enough.. someone was throwing one away.. Not exactly like the one I was buying, but close enough to do the job I needed..

In the SUV I simply pulled over, put down the middle row seats, and slid the shelf in completely built and went home.. Saved me $200.00 which will surely buy me a lot of gas..

Couldnt have done the same with a Taurus..
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:52 PM
 
29,890 posts, read 15,248,340 times
Reputation: 15619
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
That doesnt indicate that smaller cars are on a whole, safer than larger ones..
I have never said that smaller cars, on the whole, are safer than large ones. Not once. Are you arguing with the voices in your head or something?

Quote:
This is when you jumped in to defend their position, and tried to confirm that smaller cars are safer than larger ones using a Prius and a Hummer.
You brought up colliding with a tree in a Hummer and a Prius, respectively, thinking that the Hummer would have people just walking away. Which was a really p*ss-poor example, because the Hummer has a bad frontal collision rating. But you picked that example. Not I.

Quote:
we were discussing whats considered safer and what isnt..
I don't know what you're discussing, to be honest.

Quote:
Dont pick and choose ONE vehicle to make the argument..
"JUST ONE" - are those your words? Or mine? Let me see.. Hey, they're yours!

You asked for an example. I gave you one. I understand you don't like it. You don't have to. Just don't ask the question if you don't want to hear the answer.

Quote:
again, if you think smaller vehicles are safer
Cite where I said that. Please, at least try?

OK, I'll do it. I've never said "smaller vehicles are safer". I've stated that "larger is safer" is a silly oversimplification, which happens to be true. Examples were provided.

I've stated that mass doesn't make for collision safety, which happens to be true. Examples were provided.

And I've tried, God knows why, to correct the mishmash of physics presented as fact in your cites. The "weight of the crashing vehicle" still doesn't "determine how much speed must be absorbed during the impact". It's nonsensical.

The quality of design, engineering and build is much more important to safety than size. If you build a large vehicle well, it is safe. If you build a small vehicle well, it too is safe.

Yes, the larger vehicle presents a bigger danger to the smaller one in a collision. Just like a dump truck presents a bigger risk to an SUV. Does that make a dump truck "safer"? Pretty questionable. I'd certainly rather hit a wall in a modern vehicle with airbags, seat belt tighteners and crumple zones than in a dump truck.
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Old 03-06-2011, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Southwest Michigan/Miami Beach Miami
1,834 posts, read 2,633,019 times
Reputation: 946
I don't know if this was already mentioned but what about a hybrid SUV?

Like the Durango, Tahoe and etc?
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Southwest Michigan/Miami Beach Miami
1,834 posts, read 2,633,019 times
Reputation: 946
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bily Lovec View Post
Im not. I love SUV's.
I drive a full size Range Rover, it cost me about $80 bucks every two weeks to fill up.
Im considering buying a newer, bigger Range Rover soon.

Just asking,

but what is a bigger Range Rover?
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:13 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 53,655,914 times
Reputation: 9357
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
I have never said that smaller cars, on the whole, are safer than large ones. Not once. Are you arguing with the voices in your head or something?
I stopped here because you clearly are having difficulty following along with your own statements... Review posting 113 for a recap..

After all, its YOU telling me that I'm wrong when I say
"SUV's are safer than smaller vehicles"..

Which might lead some to believe you think smaller cars are safer..

Have a good day, you can argue with yourself.. Maybe then you can follow along with your own statements..
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Old 03-06-2011, 06:24 PM
 
29,890 posts, read 15,248,340 times
Reputation: 15619
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
My dear Dane.. you JUST said I was wrong a second ago AGAIN, when I said that SUV's were safer, and you denied it..
Counterexamples abound. "SUVs are safer" is simply not true. You are, and have been, consistently wrong.

Quote:
If SUVs arent safer then why did 43 of them make the "safest" list and ONE mini car make it?
It sure looks as if you overlooked a handful of categories, there. Small cars, mid-size cars - not relevant to the discussion? But if you're happy with IIHS as a source, even though they slapped the Hummer like a red-headed stepchild, let's have a look at the 2011 ratings, shall we? Only this time, let's compare apples to apples.

Large Cars with good ratings in all 4 tests: 14
Large SUVs with good ratings in all 4 tests: 1 (Ouch!)

Midsize Cars with good ratings in all 4 tests:15
Midsize SUVs with good ratings in all 4 tests:18 (Looking good, but then...)

Small Cars with good ratings in all 4 tests:12
Small SUVs with good ratings in all 4 tests: 6 (Darn.)

Mini Cars with good ratings in all 4 tests: 1

I'll let you do your own math, because I've belatedly come to realize that it's actually a worthless statistic: The number of models in each category skews the results.

If there were to be 5 models of mini cars and 70 models of SUV, you could have a 100% of all mini cars be safe, 10% of all SUVs be safe, and the SUV category would still "win" 7 to 5.

Quote:
Are you now admitting that SUV's are safer on a whole than small cars because that is what started this discussion, I said they were
Ehm - you claimed that pure mass was a safety factor. I called BS and still do. You claimed that no examples could exist of a Prius being safer than an SUV. I called BS and still do.

Quote:
and I sighted numerous sources to support that
Most of which didn't say anything like you claimed they did. You messed up accident survivability with number of deaths per years of registration, two entirely different stats. (OK, in fairness, that was your source not understanding the stat. Doesn't make it a correct statement.)

Quote:
and you went off on some tangent questioning the sources and going on some discussion about Newton..
Don't bring up the correlation between mass, speed and energy unless you're prepared to deal with it. Or as somebody put it - Didn't you study the subject in school? Oh, that was you, wasn't it. Fancy that.
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