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Old 03-18-2011, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,017,954 times
Reputation: 12105

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer View Post
Oh brother........... Another left right wingnut.. Why does everything have to be left right to people like you???????? You really are a brainwashed lemming if you believe in those paradigms. The US needs to move past the silly ideology of left vs. right.
Funny considering the left or right only appear in your posts here, not mine.

Besides that expected unawareness, are you also unaware of two factions among conservatives riding two different boats, going in opposite directions on the subject but with a single purpose... the quest for more of that Obama-hatorade?
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,519 posts, read 31,902,789 times
Reputation: 9412
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
It means that, 5 minutes after Col. Crazy started firing on his own citizens, Libya's democratic neighbors should have been talking about military intervention.
Well, the Syrians just killed two protestors, and there are casualties in Bahrain. Should their neigbor (Iran) invade these countries?
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:38 PM
 
11,311 posts, read 16,823,077 times
Reputation: 5525
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Like Einstein says....make up your mind. I have already done my mea culpa's in regard to Obama by openly admitting that he's too damn hawkish for my taste and that i'm extremely disappointed in his behavior as the Commander in Chief. I've also admitted in previous threads that i fooled myself into believing that he was a dove even though i knew in the back of my mind that he wasn't. I'm a sucker. I admit it.

Now it's your turn. Do you love wars or not? You conservatives love strength and belligerence so long as it's a conservative president at the helm. But now, you don't like it for some strange reason. Now, you all want to pretend that you're a bunch of doves even though during the Bush Administration, there wasn't enough blood on the planet to satiate your thirst. Had Bush been given more time, you all wanted war with Iran.

So what's your malfunction here? Seems to me that the President can't satisfy you guys no matter what he does. Why not just come out and say that you hate the man regardless of his actions (good or bad) and NOTHING he does can placate you. If you'd all do that, we could cut down on the amount of stupid threads....and moreover, we could cut down on silly comments on those silly threads.
Such are the consequences of this culture of partisanship that has engulfed our society.

Would it not be legitimate to think that Iraq was a really bad idea and that Libya is as well?
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:40 PM
 
14,253 posts, read 14,752,548 times
Reputation: 13616
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
It means that, 5 minutes after Col. Crazy started firing on his own citizens, Libya's democratic neighbors should have been talking about military intervention.

24 Hours later, a mediterranean coalition of democratic governments should have instituted a no-fly zone, for the basic human rights of the Libyan people.

Instead, they sat around and waited for weeks with their thumbs in their asses, waiting on OTHER countries halfway around the world to make a decision, waiting on the slowest defense bureaucracies to hem and haw about things, while precious time was being wasted.
First of all, on the southern shore of the Mediterranean, there are no democratic neighbors. Secondly, you cannot go around invading countries just because they crack down on their own citizens. Otherwise just about every country in the world, including the US, would be getting invaded all the time.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:48 PM
 
2,413 posts, read 2,562,007 times
Reputation: 2030
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
LOL @ "take out NK and Iran"...as if it's that easy.

Maybe 20-30 years ago, the N. Koreans didn't want to be taken out, just like they don't want to be taken out now. Think they're just going to roll over? Was Ronald Reagan ready to lose a few hundred thousand in a war on the Korean Peninsula? Please....

And Iran? Take them out how? We can't even subdue Iraq, which has a third of the Iranian population. U.S. troops on the ground would get eaten the hell up in a protracted guerilla war that would lead to our humiliating defeat. Vietnam would look like a Girl Scout campout compared to an Iranian conflict.

There is a such thing as "limits of power." Seems like a lot of hardheads don't get that.
Ummmmmm where did I say "take out Iran and NK". I said take out NK's leadership. You need to go back and learn American and world history. We have been toppling governments and installing regimes for 50+ years. We should have done that in NK. That is my point. KimJongIl should have had an "accident" decades ago. And yes you're right war with Iran would be a mess ONLY because we have so many goddamn troops all over the world and in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we weren't spread thin we could have and still could go to war with Iran IF and ONLY IF we had to. Are you actually saying the Iranian military is any match for the US military? If so you are clueless. Again Iran is in the situation it is in because of the USA. Do your history. We overthrew Mossadeq, installed the Shah, took him out and put in the Ayatollahs. You really have no clue how the world works or what your own CIA and the MI6 have been up to for the last 50 years do you? We should never have even bothered going into Iraq let alone Afghanistan. Haha but none of that matters anyways considering 9/11 was hardly carried out soley by 14 hijackers with box cutters. How you like that can of worms?
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:49 PM
 
47,314 posts, read 24,649,386 times
Reputation: 14470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
Such are the consequences of this culture of partisanship that has engulfed our society.

Would it not be legitimate to think that Iraq was a really bad idea and that Libya is as well?
Iraq is the worse foreign policy tragedy in my lifetime. When i think about all those dead soldiers, it just ticks me off to no end. I nearly come to pieces with anger. I want to know why they're dead. What for? And no one has yet given me a good answer.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:51 PM
 
8,801 posts, read 5,341,991 times
Reputation: 3673
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer View Post
I agree but why the hell dont the damn young boys and women serving this country get a fricking clue???????????????? I mean seriously......what is it going to take for the ACTUAL military personnel to say enough is enough? Or are they all that brainwashed to see how they are being used as pawns for a corrupt corporate elite run government? There is only so much the US people can do nowadays short of violent revolt........(which I'm all for) without the military standing up and defending the people instead of the government.
It's the civilian leadership that is leading this charge ... and the military is supposed to do as that civilian leadership commands. Otherwise, you have a military dictatorship in which the unelected military rules the nation.

We the people have failed MISERABLY in our responsibility to demand that our civilian, elected government behave in a lawful manner, so it's unreasonable to put the onus on a bunch of brainwashed 20 something year olds who are being placed in the middle of chaos, watching their friends get shot and blown up. Have you seen the treatment those in the military receive for dissenting? And it doesn't just come in the form of punishment from their commanders, but also the brain dead public who label them cowards and traitors.

Those conscientious within the upper ranks of the military who balked at these imperialistic war policies have already been purged, leaving the likes of General Betray-us in charge, and following his orders.

Read up on what is happening to Private Manning, as he has already been labeled guilty and being tortured right here on US Soil ...

No, the responsibility for this rests in the hands of the American public as they gather around the TV set with popcorn and bud lite to watch CNN's coverage of "Shock & Awe".
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:52 PM
 
14,253 posts, read 14,752,548 times
Reputation: 13616
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer View Post
Ummmmmm where did I say "take out Iran and NK". I said take out NK's leadership. You need to go back and learn American and world history. We have been toppling governments and installing regimes for 50+ years. We should have done that in NK. That is my point. KimJongIl should have had an "accident" decades ago. And yes you're right war with Iran would be a mess ONLY because we have so many goddamn troops all over the world and in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we weren't spread thin we could have and still could go to war with Iran IF and ONLY IF we had to. Are you actually saying the Iranian military is any match for the US military? If so you are clueless. Again Iran is in the situation it is in because of the USA. Do your history. We overthrew Mossadeq, installed the Shah, took him out and put in the Ayatollahs. You really have no clue how the world works or what your own CIA and the MI6 have been up to for the last 50 years do you? We should never have even bothered going into Iraq let alone Afghanistan. Haha but none of that matters anyways considering 9/11 was hardly carried out soley by 14 hijackers with box cutters. How you like that can of worms?
Iran is three times the size of Iraq and much more ethnically homogeneous. Look how long it took us to stabilize Iraq, at all the US casualties and at the cost. And you seriously think we should have invaded Iran
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:52 PM
 
2,413 posts, read 2,562,007 times
Reputation: 2030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaggy001 View Post
Problem is, you cannot just bomb everyone you don't like if they refuse to play nice. In fact, you can only bomb those countries that are too weak to stand up for themselves, who do not have some kind of leverage (economic or otherwise) or who do not have powerful friends.

Lets look at your examples:

Iran ... problem is that they have economic leverage through their ability to damage the Arabian oil fields and close the Straits of Hormuz. They can also make our life very difficult in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

China ... they have both economic and military leverage. Not a fight we can be sure of winning.

Mexico ... not sure what bombing would do for us there but I am open to suggestions.

North Korea ... last time we got involved in a war there the Chinese intervened. Not a good idea really.

It sound good to talk tough but the real world is just a bit more complicated. Foreign policy actions do have consequences. Fortunately, this president seems to understand that.
Iran......exactly our reliance on foreign oil prohibits us from taking a hardline stance on the country. There is no reason why we can't do what we did a hundred times before in supporting a people's uprising. I mean if we can overthrow governments in Chile and Guatemala we can certainly arm a few rebel factions to the teeth in Iran no? LOL.

China.......ok so why are they are biggest trading partner? Seems a little hypocritical doesn't it?

Mexico......nobody said anything about bombing mexico. It was an example of our completely useless foreign policy in protecting our country and keeping it safe. we need to seal our borders, curb illegal immigration etc. Not sing songs and hold hands with the President of Mexico as Obama and Bush have done.

North Korea........exactly and again China being our biggest trading partner..........so why do we let China bully us then? Oh that's right corporate interests. Our government and corporations sold us out to the chinese decades ago and has made us completely reliant on them in this "global economy".
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:55 PM
 
2,413 posts, read 2,562,007 times
Reputation: 2030
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
It's the civilian leadership that is leading this charge ... and the military is supposed to do as that civilian leadership commands. Otherwise, you have a military dictatorship in which the unelected military rules the nation.

We the people have failed MISERABLY in our responsibility to demand that our civilian, elected government behave in a lawful manner, so it's unreasonable to put the onus on a bunch of brainwashed 20 something year olds who are being placed in the middle of chaos, watching their friends get shot and blown up. Have you seen the treatment those in the military receive for dissenting? And it doesn't just come in the form of punishment from their commanders, but also the brain dead public who label them cowards and traitors.

Those conscientious within the upper ranks of the military who balked at these imperialistic war policies have already been purged, leaving the likes of General Betray-us in charge, and following his orders.

Read up on what is happening to Private Manning, as he has already been labeled guilty and being tortured right here on US Soil ...

No, the responsibility for this rests in the hands of the American public as they gather around the TV set with popcorn and bud lite to watch CNN's coverage of "Shock & Awe".

Ummm nice points but we have an ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY FORCE! Young people don't have to sign up to support our imperialistic government and corporations. I didn't. Other young people don't have to. Once America is worth fighting for again they can. But right now no one should be joining the military and dying for a corrupt and tyrannical US government. Once our politicians and leaders realize no one wants to fight and die for them and their corporate cronies they might wake up and realize they need to change course. that is my point. And what about those Foxnews junkies pushing their sons and daughters into joining the "military" because they are fighting for Freedm and democracy? HUH? Don't be a hypocrite.
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