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Old 03-21-2011, 10:22 AM
 
44,577 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miu View Post
About what's happening right now with negative stereotypes... I would place the majority of blame on the shoulders of anyone who is an ill behaving adult. This means that if a large number of black people are behaving poorly, then it causes others to view the rest of the black community in a bad light. And the same goes for Asians, Hispanics and whites... if any group of people is behaving and acting in a shameful way of course the rest of society is going to want to avoid that segment of the population, and we start analyzing what the common denominators of that group are... skin colour, nationality, religion, neighborhood.... and we use logic to help us stay away from those losers.

And this is why there is currently negative stereotyping of Muslims. Thanks to the terrible actions of the terrorist Jihadists, much of the rest of the world community is concerned and afraid of associating with Muslims.

This is about cause and effect. There are consequences for every action, good or bad.
But this is something you should think about. Most Muslims are not committing acts of terror. In fact, the Muslims I am around don't like what has been done. The thing is, it is the terrorists who get the most attention. And the African-American community, most African-Americans aren't thugs or commit criminal acts. You have people like me and my father who are doing good things. You have people like Cornell West, Tavis Smiley, Neil DeGrasse Tyson, all of them African-American intellectuals, but I notice more people know about T.I and his criminal activities then the three persons I just mentioned. Most aren't doing the bad stuff, but the bad people get the most attention, the most media coverage. I don't recall anyone putting me on the 6 o'clock news when I won the geography for my middle school all 3 years. I might have been the only kid to do this. However, I do see alot of criminals on the 6 o'clock news. One of the reason I don't watch the news anymore. None of it represents me.

The bad things sell much more than the good. I read in another post that being educated, raising your children right, respecting women, making your community a nice place to live, are considered the exception rather than the norm for the African-American community. In this very post, it was said that African-Americans are considered underachievers. Well, if this is all true, then wouldn't it make sense for stories about African-Americans succeeding, being into mathematics and astronomy to be in the news much more often than they are?
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:24 AM
 
16,700 posts, read 18,913,643 times
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If a child starts off as a racist then yes, parenting plays a big part in it but maintaining that racism is a different story altogether.... continual peer pressure, bad experiences, propaganda, etc all help to continue those views.... unfortunately, we are all human beings and therefore, "first impressions" with other races can often be the defining moment on how we view other races...
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:30 AM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,073,128 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purehuman View Post
Kids learn racism, if not from their parents then from the government..As long as their are programs offered just for "monorities", or just for immigrants, or just for special interest groups, THAT discrimination breeds racism.
Racism is borne from many different things. I once knew a person who was very open and respectful to all races, didn't measure them by stereotypical means. Then a very tragic and violent action was committed against them by a group of one race. Since then they have a severe distaste for that group of people and while not equivalent of that of a racist promoting group, they do now form stereotypical views of the group that offended them.

So while parents I do believe can be a contributing factor, ultimately it is the individual and their experiences to which form their opinion of other races and this can change at any time during their life.
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:37 AM
 
9,056 posts, read 6,723,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
My mother brought me up as being anything but racist, she railed against it. My grandmother was extremely racist and we all just laughed at her for being basically old and out-of-touch. I've had friends of practically every racial background.

People want to make racism seem as if it is based on anger or ignorance, but in reality racism is neither. Racism really comes from an understanding that, humans are not equal, and that humans from more distantly dissimilar backgrounds tend to be more unequal than humans from more similar backgrounds. And that humans are tribal in nature, and tend to self-identify themselves as being part of certain groups based on ancestry or physical attributes. And that this cannot be overcome by simply trying to state idealistic and ignorant drivel, such as "all people are equal".

Furthermore, I personally believe people become more racist as they age, especially into their adulthood. Because they become much more rigid in their view of the world. Especially if they have children of their own. Because it is their job to sort of mold their children and the world that their children are exposed to, to basically be the best for them. And while they are hesitant to be racist or bigoted, they understand that the best place for their kids to be, is as far away from "diversity" as can be found. They may not want to acknowledge it, because it is basically a taboo in society now. But they really feel very queasy on the prospect of their daughter bringing home anyone of another "race". And while there are a few people who are truly untouched by racial bias, it is an extreme rarity of about 4%(from statistics I have read). It is no where near the norm. It makes about as much sense expect racism to disappear, as it is to expect every single person in this country to acquire a doctorate degree.

I don't even understand the supposedly "ignorant" label fixed on people who have basically acknowledged evolutionary theory as truth. I recognize that humans are imperfect. I understand why blacks dominate many professional sports. And I understand why they tend to fail at standardized testing. I understand why Asians score better than whites. I understand that Asians are short. I understand cancer and disease survival rates in different groups of humans. I understand lactose intolerance. Basically, I understand the world around me. I am not ignorant. And I am very racist, because while it is no guarantee, it is an extremely reliable mechanism to predict potential.

That isn't to say that I am hateful. I am respectful of all people, if you were a black man working in my place of employment, I would treat you like anyone else. But in the areas where I need to make judgements, I must take "race" into account. I need to basically discriminate based on race, just as I might discriminate based on sex, age, appearance, or socio-economic background. I would be a fool not to, and so would you.

And really, the most foul part of this whole situation we have found ourselves in... A friend of mine always quips, black people can live in white neighborhoods, but white people cannot live in black neighborhoods. Sad but true.
I don't understand what discrimination you would need to make based on race for employment. That sounds like a convenient excuse to me, for not hiring someone who's race makes you uncomfortable. In fact your whole post, while eloquently written, sounds like an excuse.

What kind of job are you referring to that an applicant can't get based on their merits, and can be excluded from qualifying for based on race alone? What employment are you offering that you actually "need to discriminate" based on race? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely would like to know.

As for your friend who quips that black people can live in white neighborhoods, blah blah - he needs to get out more. I live in a predominately black neighborhood and my neighbors have been nothing but kind and, well, neighborly. More so than my white neighbors in my white neighborhoods have been, for that matter. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that experience.

It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate based on a person's race, just because there are members of that race that behave badly. One doesn't discriminate against all of one's own race because members of one's own race behave badly. That would be kind of silly. And it would leave you with nobody.

People need to be taken on their individual merits. You could make a case for pre-determining everybody's potential based on the color of their skin. I'd wager that 9 times out of 10, based on that criteria alone, you'd be wrong.
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Old 03-21-2011, 10:51 AM
 
44,577 posts, read 43,103,689 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
My mother brought me up as being anything but racist, she railed against it. My grandmother was extremely racist and we all just laughed at her for being basically old and out-of-touch. I've had friends of practically every racial background.

People want to make racism seem as if it is based on anger or ignorance, but in reality racism is neither. Racism really comes from an understanding that, humans are not equal, and that humans from more distantly dissimilar backgrounds tend to be more unequal than humans from more similar backgrounds. And that humans are tribal in nature, and tend to self-identify themselves as being part of certain groups based on ancestry or physical attributes. And that this cannot be overcome by simply trying to state idealistic and ignorant drivel, such as "all people are equal".

Furthermore, I personally believe people become more racist as they age, especially into their adulthood. Because they become much more rigid in their view of the world. Especially if they have children of their own. Because it is their job to sort of mold their children and the world that their children are exposed to, to basically be the best for them. And while they are hesitant to be racist or bigoted, they understand that the best place for their kids to be, is as far away from "diversity" as can be found. They may not want to acknowledge it, because it is basically a taboo in society now. But they really feel very queasy on the prospect of their daughter bringing home anyone of another "race". And while there are a few people who are truly untouched by racial bias, it is an extreme rarity of about 4%(from statistics I have read). It is no where near the norm. It makes about as much sense expect racism to disappear, as it is to expect every single person in this country to acquire a doctorate degree.

I don't even understand the supposedly "ignorant" label fixed on people who have basically acknowledged evolutionary theory as truth. I recognize that humans are imperfect. I understand why blacks dominate many professional sports. And I understand why they tend to fail at standardized testing. I understand why Asians score better than whites. I understand that Asians are short. I understand cancer and disease survival rates in different groups of humans. I understand lactose intolerance. Basically, I understand the world around me. I am not ignorant. And I am very racist, because while it is no guarantee, it is an extremely reliable mechanism to predict potential.

That isn't to say that I am hateful. I am respectful of all people, if you were a black man working in my place of employment, I would treat you like anyone else. But in the areas where I need to make judgements, I must take "race" into account. I need to basically discriminate based on race, just as I might discriminate based on sex, age, appearance, or socio-economic background. I would be a fool not to, and so would you.

And really, the most foul part of this whole situation we have found ourselves in... A friend of mine always quips, black people can live in white neighborhoods, but white people cannot live in black neighborhoods. Sad but true.
Well, your behavior makes no room for the individual. What about the individuals who DON'T fit the stereotype? What is in it for them? What is in it for me? It when people use those attitudes to decide who they hire or put in charge that angers me. This hurts me personally because it could me I get rejected for a job that I might need. As it is, African-Americans might have more economic and political power than back in the 1930's, but being 13% of the population, this is still small compared to the White population, at 65%. This means discrimination would hurt African-Americans, including me, disproportionately.

And from my personal experience, I have lived in a predominantly White neighborhood and had alot of problems living in that particular neighborhood.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:31 AM
 
2,856 posts, read 1,566,110 times
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In life, we should always judge others as individuals. That is the ideal. But that is not always the reality. For example, let's say that you are walking down the street in a rough part of town and you see a group of 5 thuggish looking Black guys walking your way. Does race come into play here? What if it was 5 thuggish looking White guys? What if it was 5 thuggish looking elderly Jewish ladies? The point is, we make judgements about others when we have to make quick decisions and sometimes race is a factor. When we make more considered decisions, we should look deeper than that.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:37 AM
 
Location: 22 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
23,187 posts, read 12,998,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Where does racism start?

A room full of 3 and 4 year old children and there is no racism.
the real problem is that we even call it racism

1. we are all of the HUMAN RACE

2. ANY DIFFERENCE, being NOTED is just that a noted difference not racism.....even when you note the differenec between gender, color, or even political stance

3. the problem is (or so it SEEMS) , is that liberals always want to CLASSIFY, or STATUSFY, everyone...liberals SEEM TO love the gender wars, race wars, classwars, etc
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
7,134 posts, read 4,317,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FinsterRufus View Post
I don't understand what discrimination you would need to make based on race for employment. That sounds like a convenient excuse to me, for not hiring someone who's race makes you uncomfortable. In fact your whole post, while eloquently written, sounds like an excuse.

What kind of job are you referring to that an applicant can't get based on their merits, and can be excluded from qualifying for based on race alone? What employment are you offering that you actually "need to discriminate" based on race? I'm not trying to be snarky, I genuinely would like to know.
First, because of Affirmative-action, it is difficult to even weigh the merit of an individual. To me, a minority with a college degree is meaningless. Secondly, I hate working with individuals of "protected" status. Because it is nearly impossible to fire them, especially if you are working a union job. Minorities tend to naturally break into separate groups, which can destroy worker cohesion. So I warrant no benefits from having a diverse workfoce, I see it as being very harmful.

Quote:
As for your friend who quips that black people can live in white neighborhoods, blah blah - he needs to get out more. I live in a predominately black neighborhood and my neighbors have been nothing but kind and, well, neighborly. More so than my white neighbors in my white neighborhoods have been, for that matter. And I'm sure I'm not alone in that experience.
Get out more? I think maybe you should get out more. Your neighborhood might really be what you say it is(but I doubt it). And even if it really is as inviting as you say it is, it is an abnormality. I don't think anyone in their right mind will believe that black neighborhoods are as welcoming to the stray white guy as white neighborhoods are welcoming to the stray black guy.

Quote:
It doesn't make sense to me to discriminate based on a person's race, just because there are members of that race that behave badly. One doesn't discriminate against all of one's own race because members of one's own race behave badly. That would be kind of silly. And it would leave you with nobody.
I discriminate based on a million factors. Racial discrimination is really nothing different than discriminating based on someones age, gender, or appearance. You look for tendencies.

I am not saying that I do not associate with people of other races, but more than I am much more cautious when I associate with them. People of other races "TEND" to sort of fit in a box. There are some that fall outside of the box, but 90% don't. When you deal with someone who is young, they also tend to fit into a sort of box. They are usually immature, unrelible, and unknowledgeable, stubborn and rebelious. Women also fall into basically a different type of box than do men. And while there are those exceptions that fall outside of the box, it is stupid to ignore the fact that there are human tendencies associated with all kinds of different characteristics.

What society and the media wants to do is pretend that all humans are exactly the same, and that you can never pre-judge someone for any reason(prejudice). But not only are humans not equal by their very nature, they are also discriminatory by their very nature. Every decision you make is basically discriminatory. Even sexual attraction itself is discriminatory(regardless of race).

I do try to judge someone as an individual, but since the vast majority of people are dishonest, it makes it very difficult(and since society itself is pushing dishonesty through special-priviledges). To me, it is a much better policy to just "play the odds". Odds are that a black person entering an all-white workplace just won't fit in. It is a much safer bet to just hire the white guy that is equally qualified and is much more likely to fit in. Odds are that the black guy walking down the street with his pants hanging down to his knees is much more likely to rob you than the white guy in a suit and tie on the other side of the street. Am I always right? No. But that doesn't make me unwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pirate_lafitte View Post
Well, your behavior makes no room for the individual. What about the individuals who DON'T fit the stereotype? What is in it for them? What is in it for me? It when people use those attitudes to decide who they hire or put in charge that angers me. This hurts me personally because it could me I get rejected for a job that I might need. As it is, African-Americans might have more economic and political power than back in the 1930's, but being 13% of the population, this is still small compared to the White population, at 65%. This means discrimination would hurt African-Americans, including me, disproportionately.

And from my personal experience, I have lived in a predominantly White neighborhood and had alot of problems living in that particular neighborhood.
Stop for a minute. Blacks are already grossly overrepresented in almost every government job. Blacks are already given special-priviledges when it comes to higher-education. So don't pretend for a second that you have it so bad.

The truth is, there are something like 40 million blacks living in the United States. Thats more black people living in the United States than there are people living in Canada. The Black population in this country eclipses the populations of practically all European countries.

If whites were really as bad as you say they are, you could just as easily only deal amongst yourselves.

I am not trying to say that all blacks are bad, or genetically inferior. But I am saying that because of how natural selection works, that certain groups tend to accumulate more "athlete genes" and some accumulate more "intellectual genes".

Basically, if there was an isolated population of people with equal numbers of "brown-eyed" genes and "blue-eyed genes". Then as long as each person in that population had equal numbers of children, then the number of each gene would stay constant.

If you take blonde-hair for instance, every person with blonde-hair is a direct descendant of every other person with blonde-hair. People who are lactose-tolerant are a direct descendant of every other person who is lactose-tolerant. The only way for a single-person with a single-gene to become the single ancestor of all of humanity, is to basically let all others die.

If hypothetically I was born with a mutated gene on my Y chromosome that made me basically immune to prostate cancer. Then the only way for all other human males to have my gene, is for every single male on this planet to be my descendant.

I am not saying minorities are inferior, but simply stating that minorities tend to have more children(especially the minorities that consistently score highly on tests). And if we push this concept where no one is allowed to discriminate for any reason. I think we will end up damaging ourselves and our posterity. It is nothing but ideology, not science. Science proves more and more our differences.

Nature is a cruel cruel world, and people are not equal. The government is creating an illusion of equality to make people feel better. But it is not reality, and it annoys me when people who are realistic and scientific get branded as hateful and ignorant, because people don't like what they have to say.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,004,420 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
Nature is a cruel cruel world, and people are not equal. The government is creating an illusion of equality to make people feel better. But it is not reality, and it annoys me when people who are realistic and scientific get branded as hateful and ignorant, because people don't like what they have to say.
We're clearly not equal when it comes to tolerance, mental capacity and intelligence. But as a people, when rights are concerned, as citizens, equality is NOT described by hair or skin color. Please get that right.
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Old 03-21-2011, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
7,134 posts, read 4,317,272 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
We're clearly not equal when it comes to tolerance, mental capacity and intelligence. But as a people, when rights are concerned, as citizens, equality is NOT described by hair or skin color. Please get that right.

I understand that. I do not believe the government should ever discriminate. But I find it silly that people want the government to prevent others from discriminating in their own private lives.


Lets pretend that I am a plumber by trade. There is no difference between me not hiring a black person as an apprentice just because he is black, and me not getting hired to do a job at a black persons house because I am white. Both of these things happen, except one is illegal and one is not.

People talk about how "businesses" shouldn't be able to discriminate. But what is a business? A business is a person, thats all it is. A business doesn't exist in any real terms. When you tell a business what is and isn't acceptable, you are telling people what is and isn't acceptable. You are effectively socially-engineering society in an indirect way.

I do not like discrimination, I have seen it first hand. But that isn't to say that I don't understand it(I lived on Andrews Air Force Base as a kid, went to schools in Prince Georges county in the late 80's, it was bad).

When I first started driving at 16-years old, I would get followed around and harrassed by the police for all kinds of reasons. One time, I got pulled over because I was driving to pick up my friend for school and was driving away from the high school and they thought I was trying to ditch school. I got stopped for so many silly reasons, and was never given a break. I drove my sisters car and her tag was out, I got a ticket. The same night she got pulled over and she was only given a warning. It threw me into a furious rage and I refused to pay the ticket and didn't drive for about 5 years.

When I look back, I'm not even angry. I realize why they were always harrassing me. I was a 16-year old guy driving all over the place with a bunch of other 16-year olds. I see those same people now, the way others saw me back then. And I was a pretty good kid. I wish someone had just been honest with me back then, rather than feeding my head full of idealist drivel. I probably would have been much happier.

Discrimination hurts, no one likes it, but until humanity is perfect, I see it as a necessary evil. Maybe I'm wrong?
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