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the point you and chuckie miss is you might dispute a billion here and there, but those numbers in the OP are the real deal. They are based on the daily accounting of the treasury. There is no getting around them on the whole. Sure you might debate who authorized the spending but you cannot dispute when the dollars were spent.
You raise valid points on the add-ons by Obama, but you have not shown if any of the money flowed out of the treasury before Sept 30, 2010. I'm not saying that none did or could have, some probably did, but you haven't shown me that yet. How about you gather your thoughts and come back with citations that show that those add-ons drew any money out of the treasury before Sept 30, 2010. Otherwise they are part of Obama's 2010 deficit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
Might of been about the same time you registered here and I started reading your postings..
the point you and chuckie miss is you might dispute a billion here and there, but those numbers in the OP are the real deal. They are based on the daily accounting of the treasury. There is no getting around them on the whole. Sure you might debate who authorized the spending but you cannot dispute when the dollars were spent.
noo. the numbers arent real... By your own admission Obama passed hundreds of billions of dollars in spending that you want to now blame Bush for..
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
You raise valid points on the add-ons by Obama, but you have not shown if any of the money flowed out of the treasury before Sept 30, 2010. I'm not saying that none did or could have, some probably did, but you haven't shown me that yet. How about you gather your thoughts and come back with citations that show that those add-ons drew any money out of the treasury before Sept 30, 2010. Otherwise they are part of Obama's 2010 deficit.
It ALL floated out of the treasury or it wouldnt have been added to the national deficit.
If they borrow $100B and dont spend it, then that $100B is not a deficit. It only becomes a deficit when SPENT..
I'm not going to babysit you and hold your hand trying to prove to you that when the CBO said that $185B of the stimulus bill added to the national deficit for 2009, it really was added to the national deficit for 2009. If you want to hold me to those standards, then why dont you prove to me that the national debt is what the Treasury department says it is?
You going to this final "prove to me it was spent" proves to me that your figures were wrong, and rather admit they were wrong, you now want someone to babysit you. Sorry I've spent enough time proving your OP wrong because you havent yet found ONE source which said Obama or the CBO was wrong when they said it added to the national deficit for 2009. And thats just ONE bill that was signed by Obama..
Excuse me for taking Obama and the CBO's word over some anonymous poster online who clearly has an agenda..
the problem you have, is that you cannot show that these bills you cite, moved funds out of the treasury. You are either afraid to go look or you did already and you didn't like the answer. Did one penny of any of those bill get spent before Sept 30. 2010? You are the one challenging my OP. But you are trying to do it without any support. Your opinion doesn't carry any weight.
You do understand you are talking about 7 months, not a full year?
And keep in mind, you can play the same game with the other end of Bush first term. Exactly how much did Bush II add to Clinton's last budget???? I call it a wash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
No I didnt ask WHAT it was used for.. I asked how laws OBAMA signed into law is Bush spending. if you want to then say that All 2009 spending was because of Bush, then clearly you will give credit to Bush for stopping the recession in 2009 as well right?
Again.. OBAMA SIGNED SPENDING INTO THE LAWBOOKS.. that is OBAMA spending.. At the time it was passed Democrats were even questioning if it was needed because the crash had stopped.. So you arent going to sit here and play stupid, trying to blame Obama spending on Bush.. Ok.. you might try but...
Are you also going to then admit that 9/11 was because of Clinton because it happened less than a year into his term? Why dont we do each other a favor and have you stop the stupidity...
Surprising, from all the propaganda from the right wing nuts, you would think Obama has been running up the largest deficit in US history. Using the numbers from the US Treasury, the department that officially tracks the debt, Bush holds ALL the records.
These numbers are ACTUALLY figures from the treasury, not ESTIMATES from the White House, the CBO, or some opinion piece. They are fact.
Monthly Deficits (Total National Debt)
$379 Billion Sept 2008 Bush II (NEW RECORD) $549 Billion Oct 2008 Bush II (RECORD TO BUSH, AGAIN!!!!) $245 Billion Feb 2009 Bush II $250 Billion March 2009 Bush II $223 Billion June 2009 Bush II
$333 Billion March 2010 Obama $210 Billion June 2010 Obama $200 Billion July 2010 Obama $211 Billion Aug 2010 Obama
It gets even worse, Bush's budgets hold the record on an annual basis, too.
Annual Fiscal Year Deficits (Public Debt)
2008 Public Debt increased $750 Billion for Bush's budget. (Sept 2007 @ $5.057 Trillion to Sept 2008 @ $5.808 Trillion) (NEW RECORD)
2009 Public Debt increased $1.743 TRILLION for Bush's last budget. (Sept 2008 @ $5.808 Trillion to Sept 2009 @ $7.551 Trillion) (RECORD TO BUSH, AGAIN!!!!)
2010 Public Debt increased $1.471 TRILLION for Obama's first budget (Sept 2009 @ $7.551 Trillion to Sept 2010 @ $9.022 Trillion)
If you want to talk National Debt, the picture isn't any better.
Annual Fiscal Year Deficits (Total National Debt)
2008 Bush $1.017 Trillion Deficit (NEW RECORD) 2009 Bush $1.885 Triilion Deficit (RECORD TO BUSH, AGAIN!!!!) 2010 Obama $1.653 Trillion Deficit
Bush II still holds the record
Over Bush's 8 years he AVERAGED an annual $763 BILLION deficit (Sept 30th 2001 to Sept 30 2009). 3/4 of a trillion dollars ever year Bush II signed a budget.
And the right would have us believe this debt problem started the day Obama took office.
Surprising, from all the propaganda from the right wing nuts, you would think Obama has been running up the largest deficit in US history. Using the numbers from the US Treasury, the department that officially tracks the debt, Bush holds ALL the records.
These numbers are ACTUALLY figures from the treasury, not ESTIMATES from the White House, the CBO, or some opinion piece. They are fact.
Monthly Deficits (Total National Debt)
$379 Billion Sept 2008 Bush II (NEW RECORD)
$549 Billion Oct 2008 Bush II (RECORD TO BUSH, AGAIN!!!!)
$245 Billion Feb 2009 Bush II
$250 Billion March 2009 Bush II
$223 Billion June 2009 Bush II
$333 Billion March 2010 Obama
$210 Billion June 2010 Obama
$200 Billion July 2010 Obama
$211 Billion Aug 2010 Obama
It gets even worse, Bush's budgets hold the record on an annual basis, too.
Annual Fiscal Year Deficits (Public Debt)
2008 Public Debt increased $750 Billion for Bush's budget. (Sept 2007 @ $5.057 Trillion to Sept 2008 @ $5.808 Trillion) (NEW RECORD)
2009 Public Debt increased $1.743 TRILLION for Bush's last budget. (Sept 2008 @ $5.808 Trillion to Sept 2009 @ $7.551 Trillion) (RECORD TO BUSH, AGAIN!!!!)
2010 Public Debt increased $1.471 TRILLION for Obama's first budget (Sept 2009 @ $7.551 Trillion to Sept 2010 @ $9.022 Trillion)
If you want to talk National Debt, the picture isn't any better.
Annual Fiscal Year Deficits (Total National Debt)
2008 Bush $1.017 Trillion Deficit (NEW RECORD) 2009 Bush $1.885 Triilion Deficit (RECORD TO BUSH, AGAIN!!!!) 2010 Obama $1.653 Trillion Deficit
Bush II still holds the record
Over Bush's 8 years he AVERAGED an annual $763 BILLION deficit (Sept 30th 2001 to Sept 30 2009). 3/4 of a trillion dollars ever year Bush II signed a budget.
And the right would have us believe this debt problem started the day Obama took office.
What is also very telling about that most shameful of political parties is that during the time that Bush was running up the deficit, those Republicans were silent. They didn't start with the deficit nonsense until Obama took office, trying to pin the deficit on him. What a strategy. Obama enjoying success as president and his numbers are good, so their plan didn't work.
I find that the Republican party is petty, narrow-minded, ineffective, and just plain not good. They stink and this is one of the reasons why. They should be disbanded because they're useless.
the problem you have, is that you cannot show that these bills you cite, moved funds out of the treasury.
So you are calling Obama and the CBO a lier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
You are either afraid to go look or you did already and you didn't like the answer.
I'm sorry but YOU are the one trying to say it didnt move out of the treasury.. its YOU who has to prove Obama and the CBO are lying.. Thats how it works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
Did one penny of any of those bill get spent before Sept 30. 2010?
Yes, unless the CBO and Obama are lying.. Is this your claim?
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
You are the one challenging my OP. But you are trying to do it without any support. Your opinion doesn't carry any weight.
You have offered NOTHING to say that Obama and the CBO are lying.. Its YOU who has to prove they are and the money wasnt spent.. Its your OPINION that doesnt matter because we have those who know better telling us it was spent.. Are you now trying to start some big conspiracy by telling us they didnt spend it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
You do understand you are talking about 7 months, not a full year?
Yep.. Obama managed to pass a lot of spending bills in those 7 months.. The stimulus bill is just ONE of them..
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzards27
And keep in mind, you can play the same game with the other end of Bush first term. Exactly how much did Bush II add to Clinton's last budget???? I call it a wash.
Nope.. not even close to a wash..
especially considering CONGRESS SPENDS..
I'm done on this thread.. You've wasted enough of my time proving absolutely nothing..
From fiscal year 2008 through fiscal year 2011, outlays grew by $748 billion. During that same period, tax revenue actually rose by $28 billion.
Tax revenue only declined one year - FY 2009. During the period from FY 2008 to FY 2009, tax revenue declined by $412 billion while spending rose by $500 billion.
Misleading information on your part.
Yes, the decrease in tax revenues ONLY took place in ONE year (2009) but that decrease was large ($419 billion) - far larger than the increase that took place in 2010 ($58 billion) so the net result it that overall tax revenues are STILL down from what they were in 2008 (even though they ARE now growing again). In fact, even with the economy now in recovery it's going to take time for revenues to rebuild and it likely we won't reach the the 2008 levels of revenue until NEXT YEAR. All of which proves my point that it's NOT just that spending went up under Obama, a very big part of the increase in the deficit is the fact that tax revenues FELL because of the economic collapse that started in December of 2007 and really went into freefall during the banking crises of 2008.
Of course, the 2011 figure is an estimate, usually the one published by the White House is quite rosy.. But the fact remains that during that period, outlays exceeded declining revenue by a wide margin.
Annual costs of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were, on average, $250 billion. Last year they were around $190 billion. For 2011, I believe the allocation increased to $210 billion. Will double check later, but this should be close. That still does not account for the deficit rise from $468 billion to $1.4 trillions.
The wars and the decrease tax revenues account for just under 1/2 of the deficit increase (between 2008 & 2009 tax revenues fell by $419 billion and spending increased by $535 billion (as you mention, roughly $200 billion of that was Iraq/Afghan Wars suddenly appearing on the books as Obama "unhid" them) - that leaves a roughly $335 billion increase in spending under Obama his 1st year - a big chunk of that was the stimulus (which many economists consider to have gone a long way towards "saving" the economy). This yearly increase is pretty much in line with the yearly increase Bush gave us his last year ($258 billion in 2008).
the money is not spent when the bill is signed into law. The stimulus bill was signed into law but that didn't mean it all got spent that day. Fact is only a small portion of the money has been spent so far, less than a 1/3 last time I checked. The Treasury doesn't debit a fund until the money is actually spent.
You saying the US TREASURY is pumping out bogus numbers? That would be the only way my data is not real.
HOW much of the $185 billion, you claim, from the stimulus was added after Sept 30? Any money added after Sept 30 would be on Obama any before Sept 30 is on Bush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
noo. the numbers arent real... By your own admission Obama passed hundreds of billions of dollars in spending that you want to now blame Bush for..
It ALL floated out of the treasury or it wouldnt have been added to the national deficit.
If they borrow $100B and dont spend it, then that $100B is not a deficit. It only becomes a deficit when SPENT..
I'm not going to babysit you and hold your hand trying to prove to you that when the CBO said that $185B of the stimulus bill added to the national deficit for 2009, it really was added to the national deficit for 2009. If you want to hold me to those standards, then why dont you prove to me that the national debt is what the Treasury department says it is?
You going to this final "prove to me it was spent" proves to me that your figures were wrong, and rather admit they were wrong, you now want someone to babysit you. Sorry I've spent enough time proving your OP wrong because you havent yet found ONE source which said Obama or the CBO was wrong when they said it added to the national deficit for 2009. And thats just ONE bill that was signed by Obama..
Excuse me for taking Obama and the CBO's word over some anonymous poster online who clearly has an agenda..
no, i am calling them estimators, and they are not saying when it was spent. CBO and the White House ESTIMATE and the TREASURY does the actual accounting... I'll trust the treasury department for accurate numbers. when I want, often highly inaccurate, estimates and highly rounded data I'll go to the CBO or the White House.
no, actually, you are the one disputing the data in my OP, you are trying to do it with your opinion, estimates and guesswork. GIVE ME THE FACTS JACK...
you really gotta explain that this means, "The trillion dollar deficit creating hundreds of billions in deficits for 2009?" I don't have the pghguest speak decoder ring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
So you are calling Obama and the CBO a lier?
I'm sorry but YOU are the one trying to say it didnt move out of the treasury.. its YOU who has to prove Obama and the CBO are lying.. Thats how it works.
Yes, unless the CBO and Obama are lying.. Is this your claim?
You have offered NOTHING to say that Obama and the CBO are lying.. Its YOU who has to prove they are and the money wasnt spent.. Its your OPINION that doesnt matter because we have those who know better telling us it was spent.. Are you now trying to start some big conspiracy by telling us they didnt spend it?
Yep.. Obama managed to pass a lot of spending bills in those 7 months.. The stimulus bill is just ONE of them..
Nope.. not even close to a wash..
especially considering CONGRESS SPENDS..
I'm done on this thread.. You've wasted enough of my time proving absolutely nothing..
Last edited by buzzards27; 03-31-2011 at 05:55 PM..
the money is not spent when the bill is signed into law. The stimulus bill was signed into law but that didn't mean it all got spent that day. Fact is only a small portion of the money has been spent so far, less than a 1/3 last time I checked. The Treasury doesn't debit a fund until the money is actually spent.
You saying the US TREASURY is pumping out bogus numbers? That would be the only way my data is not real.
HOW much of the $185 billion, you claim, from the stimulus was added after Sept 30? Any money added after Sept 30 would be on Obama any before Sept 30 is on Bush.
This is going to be my VERY LAST posting on this thread because up to now.. you clearly have indicated to me no willingness to comprehend.
The Obama stimulus bill was $787 Billion..
$185B of that was spent and ADDED to the 2009 deficits because it was SPENT in 2009..
About $399B was added to the 2010 deficits because it was SPENT in 2010..
This $185B, along with LOTS of other bills, like the onmibus spending package of $106B is OBAMA spending in 2009 and its INCLUDED in your deficit totals for 2009. You are NOT going to blame Bush for Obama spending but thats what you are trying to do.. Your Treasury numbers CONFIRM this to be true.. but you dont want to hear this because it proves your OP is WRONG..
You can now have the last word and you can continue to post to others here showing your inability to learn..
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It ALL floated out of the treasury or it wouldnt have been added to the national deficit.
Excellent post
