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So pervasive racism and discrimination against people of color was "better manners and better moral values"?
Appeal to tradition is a bit of a fallacy.
Yes, they had better manners and better moral values, across the board. If you look at morals overall, things were certaintly better in the 1950's. People were harder working, generally friendlier people, the divorce rate was low, the family was the center, people gave each other respect.
Sure, you can talk about racism and discrimination and say it was a terrible time. But does the existence of racism or discrimination suddenly make every other factor unimportant? There is racism and discrimination today, does that mean everywhere that these are less prevalent, that it is a wonderful place to live? And places with lots of racism and discrimination are the crappiest places to live in the entire world? Because I know plenty of places with rampant discrimination that are wonderful places to live, by all groups involved. And I can show you plenty of places where there is relative tolerance, that no one wants to live.
Besides, the truth is that racism and discrimination only actually matter in places where multiple races must interact with each other. Largely in the 1950's, the practice of separate but equal kept the different races from each other, so it wasn't nearly as much an issue as people make it out to be. Where racism was an issue, to the point of violence, was only in areas where the two groups had to interact, especially as a result of laws forcing certain groups to sell land to other groups which forced a situation where they had to interact with each other(anti-discrimination laws)
Therefore, you could actually state that, if there had been no minorities in America in the 1950's, that this country would have been damn near perfect.
Furthermore, I think people misunderstand the intention of the laws and actions of the southern states. Most people seem to believe that their intentions were to hold blacks forever in position as a second-glass citizen, basically in a sense to perpetuate slavery. That really wasn't it at all. The real goal of discriminatory and oppressive southern laws, which saw the largescale imprisonment of blacks(especially men), and the eugenics'ey practices of forced sterilization on prisoners and the coercise sterilization of black women, while preventing interracial marriages. Was to eliminate the minority population from those states. Either from forcing them out into the Northern states, or by basically preventing them from reproducing.
Last edited by Redshadowz; 07-16-2011 at 07:16 PM..
Yes, they had better manners and better moral values, across the board. If you look at morals overall, things were certaintly better in the 1950's. People were harder working, generally friendlier people, the divorce rate was low, the family was the center, people gave each other respect.
Sure, you can talk about racism and discrimination and say it was a terrible time. But does the existence of racism or discrimination suddenly make every other factor unimportant? There is racism and discrimination today, does that mean everywhere that these are less prevalent, that it is a wonderful place to live? And places with lots of racism and discrimination are the crappiest places to live in the entire world? Because I know plenty of places with rampant discrimination that are wonderful places to live, by all groups involved. And I can show you plenty of places where there is relative tolerance, that no one wants to live.
Besides, the truth is that racism and discrimination only actually matter in places where multiple races must interact with each other. Largely in the 1950's, the practice of separate but equal kept the different races from each other, so it wasn't nearly as much an issue as people make it out to be. Where racism was an issue, to the point of violence, was only in areas where the two groups had to interact, especially as a result of laws forcing certain groups to sell land to other groups which forced a situation where they had to interact with each other(anti-discrimination laws)
Therefore, you could actually state that, if there had been no minorities in America in the 1950's, that this country would have been damn near perfect.
This isn't true, though. There have been a lot more changes in society for the social good than just civil rights. Things like child sexual abuse, domestic abuse and alcoholism were kept hidden or brushed off as of no consequence. People in "polite society" were expected to just accept the place that others assigned to them. Those
Biggest racist in my family is a hardcore Democrat. He was torn up for the last presidential election. One of the most racist places I've ever lived in was Little Rock, Arkansas. This was while Clinton was president. Plenty of Clinton fans there who were also registered Democrats. When my ex wife gave me a tour of her home town, one of the things she pointed out was the hanging tree. Her and her mom said not to worry cause there hasn't been a hanging at the hanging tree since the 70s. This was the early 90s.
Yes, they had better manners and better moral values, across the board. If you look at morals overall, things were certaintly better in the 1950's. People were harder working, generally friendlier people, the divorce rate was low, the family was the center, people gave each other respect.
Sure, you can talk about racism and discrimination and say it was a terrible time. But does the existence of racism or discrimination suddenly make every other factor unimportant? There is racism and discrimination today, does that mean everywhere that these are less prevalent, that it is a wonderful place to live? And places with lots of racism and discrimination are the crappiest places to live in the entire world? Because I know plenty of places with rampant discrimination that are wonderful places to live, by all groups involved. And I can show you plenty of places where there is relative tolerance, that no one wants to live.
Besides, the truth is that racism and discrimination only actually matter in places where multiple races must interact with each other. Largely in the 1950's, the practice of separate but equal kept the different races from each other, so it wasn't nearly as much an issue as people make it out to be. Where racism was an issue, to the point of violence, was only in areas where the two groups had to interact, especially as a result of laws forcing certain groups to sell land to other groups which forced a situation where they had to interact with each other(anti-discrimination laws)
Therefore, you could actually state that, if there had been no minorities in America in the 1950's, that this country would have been damn near perfect.
This isn't true, though. There have been a lot more changes in society for the social good than just civil rights. Things like child sexual abuse, domestic abuse and alcoholism were kept hidden or brushed off as of no consequence. People in "polite society" were expected to just accept the place that others assigned to them. Those in power made decisions based on what was best for them and their cronies--well, OK, that hasn't changed much, but it wasn't as exposed as it is today.
It wasn't moral that a man could beat his wife with no consquences or fear of arrest. It wasn't moral that a person could get drunk, mow another person down with his or her automobile, and get a $25 fine while the victim got a funeral. It wasn't moral that a rape victim had to prove that she didn't ask for it in order to press charges. Those were all common scenarios in the 50's and past that.
This isn't true, though. There have been a lot more changes in society for the social good than just civil rights. Things like child sexual abuse, domestic abuse and alcoholism were kept hidden or brushed off as of no consequence. People in "polite society" were expected to just accept the place that others assigned to them. Those in power made decisions based on what was best for them and their cronies--well, OK, that hasn't changed much, but it wasn't as exposed as it is today.
I completely understand that there was child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and alcoholism in the 1950's. Just as there is child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and alcoholism today.
I don't know if child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, or alcoholism are more or less common today than it was in the 1950's. Though I will say that many of these crimes went unreported in the 1950's, so it would be impossible to actually know for sure.
I will say that during the 1950's, there was a lot more honor in people than there is today. Which in itself probably kept down many of the ills of society. The problem in the 1950's was that there just wweren't many options for children and women of abuse, which many times would keep them trapped in these kinds of situations. These kinds of relationships weren't nearly as common as most would want you to believe, but they definitely existed. And many women and children were actually killed by their abusive husbands/fathers, or even by other men in their lives.
It reminds me a little of Japan today, which is a country that has an incredibly high value for honor. As a consequence, Japan has I believe the lowest crime rate in the entire world, it is a fraction of the crime rate we have here in America. At the same time, sexism is incredibly high in Japan. It would drive the feminists in this country absolutely bonkers to think of what the women in Japan tolerate from the men in their society.
The question then becomes, would you rather live in a low-crime, low divorce-rate, honor-driven society. Where men tend to be dominant and a small percentage of women and children are abused with few options to escape.
Or would you rather live in a high-crime, high divorce-rate society, where a very large percentage of children are raised with only one-parent, largely neglected, who have no honor or respect for anyone else. And while women and children aren't trapped in abusive situations, they voluntarily enter into abusive relationships because they are constantly looking for the love they never had from their parents. All while they use more and more drugs as a means of escaping the confusion of their lives.
I completely understand that there was child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and alcoholism in the 1950's. Just as there is child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and alcoholism today.
I don't know if child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, or alcoholism are more or less common today than it was in the 1950's. Though I will say that many of these crimes went unreported in the 1950's, so it would be impossible to actually know for sure.
I will say that during the 1950's, there was a lot more honor in people than there is today. Which in itself probably kept down many of the ills of society. The problem in the 1950's was that there just wweren't many options for children and women of abuse, which many times would keep them trapped in these kinds of situations. These kinds of relationships weren't nearly as common as most would want you to believe, but they definitely existed. And many women and children were actually killed by their abusive husbands/fathers, or even by other men in their lives.
It reminds me a little of Japan today, which is a country that has an incredibly high value for honor. As a consequence, Japan has I believe the lowest crime rate in the entire world, it is a fraction of the crime rate we have here in America. At the same time, sexism is incredibly high in Japan. It would drive the feminists in this country absolutely bonkers to think of what the women in Japan tolerate from the men in their society.
The question then becomes, would you rather live in a low-crime, low divorce-rate, honor-driven society. Where men tend to be dominant and a small percentage of women and children are abused with few options to escape.
Or would you rather live in a high-crime, high divorce-rate society, where a very large percentage of children are raised with only one-parent, largely neglected, who have no honor or respect for anyone else. And while women and children aren't trapped in abusive situations, they voluntarily enter into abusive relationships because they are constantly looking for the love they never had from their parents. All while they use more and more drugs as a means of escaping the confusion of their lives.
Tough call...
Maybe things just balance themselves out in some bizarre way, I don't know--one thing improves and another thing goes downhill. I agree with you that certain characteristics that used to be held high, like personal honor, keeping your word, and making choices based on what's good for others and not just one's self have greatly diminished in the past 50 years. Greed, on the other hand, has magnified.
Re Japan--do you remember some years back when there was an airliner crash in the mountains in Japan? The head of the airline took personal responsibility and resigned. Yet in the US, the head of a company will throw the people who made the company what it is under the bus as long he gets his million-dollar bonus at the end of the year.
Maybe things just balance themselves out in some bizarre way, I don't know--one thing improves and another thing goes downhill. I agree with you that certain characteristics that used to be held high, like personal honor, keeping your word, and making choices based on what's good for others and not just one's self have greatly diminished in the past 50 years. Greed, on the other hand, has magnified.
My question is, why can't you have both? That is basically the conclusion of my dream.
The question then is, what causes the ills of society? What prevents the ills of society? Does our society currently reward bad behavior? How do you propose society can begin rewarding good behavior?
If you can answer these questions, I'll vote for you for president.
I completely understand that there was child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and alcoholism in the 1950's. Just as there is child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, and alcoholism today.
I don't know if child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, or alcoholism are more or less common today than it was in the 1950's. Though I will say that many of these crimes went unreported in the 1950's, so it would be impossible to actually know for sure.
I will say that during the 1950's, there was a lot more honor in people than there is today. Which in itself probably kept down many of the ills of society. The problem in the 1950's was that there just wweren't many options for children and women of abuse, which many times would keep them trapped in these kinds of situations. These kinds of relationships weren't nearly as common as most would want you to believe, but they definitely existed. And many women and children were actually killed by their abusive husbands/fathers, or even by other men in their lives.
It reminds me a little of Japan today, which is a country that has an incredibly high value for honor. As a consequence, Japan has I believe the lowest crime rate in the entire world, it is a fraction of the crime rate we have here in America. At the same time, sexism is incredibly high in Japan. It would drive the feminists in this country absolutely bonkers to think of what the women in Japan tolerate from the men in their society.
The question then becomes, would you rather live in a low-crime, low divorce-rate, honor-driven society. Where men tend to be dominant and a small percentage of women and children are abused with few options to escape.
Or would you rather live in a high-crime, high divorce-rate society, where a very large percentage of children are raised with only one-parent, largely neglected, who have no honor or respect for anyone else. And while women and children aren't trapped in abusive situations, they voluntarily enter into abusive relationships because they are constantly looking for the love they never had from their parents. All while they use more and more drugs as a means of escaping the confusion of their lives.
Tough call...
You raise interesting points that are hardly ever discussed in America, at least not in any mainstream sources. When it comes to the Civil Rights movement and all that followed thereafter, it seems that people want to believe that all things have been good. If you look at many of the arguments of the time against integration, many of them have come to fruition. We have high crime in the cities, degraded schools, destruction of the Black family, low moral standards and on and on. There's a tendency, especially on the left, to paint America's past as barbaric and backwards. Instead we should look at what worked and what didn't.
So pervasive racism and discrimination against people of color was "better manners and better moral values"?
Appeal to tradition is a bit of a fallacy.
Oh my gosh dude, I'm not talking about racism, of course that's not good [MOD CUT]
People did have better morals then. People kept their words more. My grandparents know, they were young adults in the early 1950s. They used to tell me all the time how bad our country has become and how misbehaved our youth has become. It sounds like people then were far more strict about how you behaved and acted out in public then. Parents and teachers didn't tolerate any nonsense from their children. Whenever you went out, my Grandparents told me you were expected to dress and look nice.
And get this, my Grandparents lived in Florida in the 1950s and they weren't racists! My Grandpa even got a warning from a KKK member one time for allowing a black man in his church. This was in 1950s Ocala, and the area was heavily racist by the way. Because of this, they had to move away from there.
So when I mean things were better then, I mean in terms of morality, how you were expected to act and present yourself and keeping your word. Also, in terms of discipline too.
Last edited by Ibginnie; 07-16-2011 at 09:29 PM..
Reason: personal attack
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