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I'm no lefty or pro-abortion, or anti-abortion, but I see this stance as hypocritical. If abortion is murdering innocent life to pro-lifers, they should protect all innocent life, not just in situations they agree with.
Carving out exceptions actually makes them pro-choice, since there is still a choice to abort. Now you're simply arguing over which choices are acceptable.
Well, you're entitled to your opinion ... and I suppose we should all be grateful that you finally decided to commit. So far, what I've seen is a very safe "no stance" while dissecting everyone else's positions. Not exactly the most legitimate place to lob charges of hypocrisy from ... in my opinion.
But I have no problem with elucidating the rationale behind what you have declared hypocrisy. The issue, contrary to the opinions of the "extremists" on both sides of the debate, as is almost always the case with very complex and controversial matters, absolutes are inappropriate and erroneous, and serves no useful purpose other than ensuring never ending battle.
Ideally, unwanted pregnancy could be eliminated, which would preclude the need for most abortions, but there would still be potential situations arise such as a crime of rape resulting in pregnancy, or even planned pregnancy that went wrong, and resulted in either severe deformity and compromise of the viability of the fetus, or in cases that jeopardizes the life of the mother..
In the former, it would most certainly be an act of protecting the rights of a victim of a heinous crime, and totally unjust to force that victim to relive that crime on a daily basis, by carrying the pregnancy to term, inflicting further damage for which the woman might never fully recover. In the case of fetus viability and deformity, a pure act of compassion in consideration of "quality of life". I find it appalling that we are as uncaring about human suffering as we are when it comes to denying them the choice to painlessly end their suffering, while extending that dignity to our beloved pets in the greatest display of selflessness one can show them ... the hard decision to put them down, and end their suffering. Few of us have been fortunate enough to escape that responsibility. So, just who's lives do we really value most? The pet or the human?
And finally, the case where the mother's life is in eminent danger ... there is certainly well established and sound principle in common law for the right of self defense and protecting one's own life, even if that requires the taking of another. And no one claiming to embrace justice and just cause could legitimately demand that one person give up their life in order to save another. All such acts of sacrifice must be voluntary, and again, no hypocrisy at all.
Now, I'd like to finish by extending my remarks relative to your position, which I find to be at least as bad, and probably most insidious of all.
You claim to neither be pro or anti- abortion, but would like to see men be given equal choice to "opt out" as do women who can unilaterally opt out through abortion, or choose to force the man into providing support.
Well, what you are REALLY saying is that you'd like to see a more equal distribution of "irresponsibility", rather than seeking greater levels of "responsibility" from both men and women .... most of whom seem to believe that they need not concern themselves with such outdated and old fashioned ideas of cause and effect, action and consequence, and personal responsibility. No, you want everyone to have the right to behave equally irresponsibly. UN-F-Believable!
That's right baby, we need a no fault philosophy when it comes to sex and pregnancy and abortion on demand.... after all it's just ridiculous to expect women or men to exercise care and judgment, when there is so much free sex for the asking out there today ... I mean, whaddaya expect, someone to govern their carnal desires for 5 seconds?
When you look over this entire thread, what a rational and reasonable person will see is an absolute absence of responsibility ... and that's the freaking good news ... the bad news is it is born of such mind numbing depravity as to condemn the entire human race .... which used to be the man's job ... but now .... now the women can't even force themselves to pretend to be decent human beings ... or demonstrate the fundamental nature of the female prevalent in almost every mammal ... the defense of their own offspring.
To those who think I consider such women brood-stock .... absolutely not. They're not fit to breed anything, except maybe disease.
getting an abortion for most caring women and I do think 95% of us are VERY caring.
making the choice to abort and then having an abortion is difficult beyond words.
having to give up your baby for adoption is difficult beyond words.
raising a baby you haven't the ability is difficult beyond words.
women will abort legal or not, anyone that has ever known a woman who died from a back alley or self induced abortion knows that horror.
abortion should always remain legal, always
Difficult beyond words? My my .... Let's examine some of truths you've shared ... and this alleged "difficulty beyond words", and how "caring" those words are:
Let's start with the blatant double talk (I'm being kind in defining it as double talk ... we know what it really is, don't we?)
Of course you aren't "pro-abortion". Goodness no ... no one is actually "Pro-Abortion" ... it's "Pro-Choice. silly!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
no one is "pro abortion" (From "if Abortion Is ever outlawed")
And one of the many "It's my womb, and I'll do as I please" songs
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
women are not stupid we know what abortion is. how someone views what abortion means to them is up to them, not your business period.
we don't care what words you want to put on it, it boils down to none of your business what a woman does with her womb.
A real statement about your caring nature .... as in "couldn't care less"
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
I support a woman's right to privacy. her reasons for getting an abortion are hers alone. I could care less why she wants one only that she can get a legal abortion
Shameless and guiltless ... "it" can't live without the womb, so it doesn't have any rights ... but the "womb" possesses all rights! Let's register you and your womb ... that'll be two votes for Obama!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
call it what you will, I will even call it what you want me to call it. either way it can not live without the aid of a womb. invent one or rent one.
your attempt at guilt doesn't work
The womb speaks!! Oh mighty womb ... is it your will that we should die? So be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
grow a womb or rent one if you need to protect the pre born babies. these brown shirts are sanctioned by the SCOTUS
Once again, "it" has no rights until it's free of the womb!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
think for a moment a baby in the womb needs that womb to survive. a baby already born can be dependent on anyone willing to do the job. big difference. once a baby is born it becomes a full citizen with rights.
Abortion is necessary to protect the civil rights of the womb, else the womb be imprisoned in a womb concentration camp.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
so you would support breeding farms and guards to watch over pregnant women with unwanted pregnancies to make sure they don't abort. should they be forced to give the baby up for adoption or do you want them punished more for having sex in the first place and want them to raise the child as part punishment for their deeds?
It's such a difficult choice for you caring women ... not to worry, as tough as it was to decide, it's really no big deal ... you can have an abortion at lunch hour, and ya won't even have to waste a sick day!! Yay!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
having an abortion does not give permanent physical damage. get educated. abortion does not take long in most cases and there really is no need to take time off.
A little more "caring" in the form of helpful advice for those women who take caring to extreme levels .... like thinking twice about abortion!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
nice dodge girl friend.......do you want these woman to be in breeding camps, confine to home or what. what do you want to happen to the babies? do the moms have to raise them or do they have to adopt their kids out?
Once again ... the womb speaks! If I wish you to die, you die ... so says the womb!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
the "life" is not a life that can live without the womb, once a life can live outside the womb then it has an equal say but until then, the pregnant woman desires trump all. her womb she can use it as she sees fit
Of course there are those "extremist" wombs who have been coerced by their rotten scoundrel husbands and pastors who actually believe those "parasitic womb freeloaders" have a right to life ... some people!
No ... these cretins just want to control the womb ... but the womb won't be controlled!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
they too have a third world mentality about themselves and the role woman play in life. a good deal of these extremest women are heavily influenced by their husbands and or their religion. wanting abortion illegal is about control, period. these anti choicers want the rest of us to live by their moral code. its one thing to be pro life but it is another all together when you want the rest of the world to live by your standards
But perhaps your proudest moment of all .... "The Mole" analogy. Now those babies are nothing more than an ugly mole ... should we get all broken up over removing a damned mole? Heck no ... and same difference for that little womb parasite.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hothulamaui
a mole is "living" is that murder when you cut it off?
you decide for yourself if the fetus is "living" when "life" begins is a judgment call that should be left up to the individual woman.
stay out of my womb what I do with it is not your business
I'm deeply touched by this river of compassion and caring ... really I am. Someone hand me a Kleenex
And you are one of the moderates here .... if we overlook the "mole" thing. For many of your caring sisters ... it's a blob ... a clump of cells ... an "it" ... a "thing".
Very touching indeed. It's just a shame that all of YOUR mothers didn't share the same ideology!
I think there is a notion that it is an "easy" option.
To some, it seems a little easier than to others. But the reality is, it's amazing how attached one can get to a mole. Removing it is like .... well ... it's like losing a little piece of yourself.
Difficult beyond words? My my .... Let's examine some of truths you've shared ... and this alleged "difficulty beyond words", and how "caring" those words are:
Let's start with the blatant double talk (I'm being kind in defining it as double talk ... we know what it really is, don't we?)
Of course you aren't "pro-abortion". Goodness no ... no one is actually "Pro-Abortion" ... it's "Pro-Choice. silly!
And one of the many "It's my womb, and I'll do as I please" songs
A real statement about your caring nature .... as in "couldn't care less"
Shameless and guiltless ... "it" can't live without the womb, so it doesn't have any rights ... but the "womb" possesses all rights! Let's register you and your womb ... that'll be two votes for Obama!
The womb speaks!! Oh mighty womb ... is it your will that we should die? So be it.
Once again, "it" has no rights until it's free of the womb!!
Abortion is necessary to protect the civil rights of the womb, else the womb be imprisoned in a womb concentration camp.
It's such a difficult choice for you caring women ... not to worry, as tough as it was to decide, it's really no big deal ... you can have an abortion at lunch hour, and ya won't even have to waste a sick day!! Yay!
A little more "caring" in the form of helpful advice for those women who take caring to extreme levels .... like thinking twice about abortion!
Once again ... the womb speaks! If I wish you to die, you die ... so says the womb!
Of course there are those "extremist" wombs who have been coerced by their rotten scoundrel husbands and pastors who actually believe those "parasitic womb freeloaders" have a right to life ... some people!
No ... these cretins just want to control the womb ... but the womb won't be controlled!!!
But perhaps your proudest moment of all .... "The Mole" analogy. Now those babies are nothing more than an ugly mole ... should we get all broken up over removing a damned mole? Heck no ... and same difference for that little womb parasite.
I'm deeply touched by this river of compassion and caring ... really I am. Someone hand me a Kleenex
And you are one of the moderates here .... if we overlook the "mole" thing. For many of your caring sisters ... it's a blob ... a clump of cells ... an "it" ... a "thing".
Very touching indeed. It's just a shame that all of YOUR mothers didn't share the same ideology!
Reading over your diatribe of bitter sarcasm and outright insults, I must ask, when your attitude toward women is so demeaning towards women, how do you not think that you treat women as second-class citizens? All women are supposed to feel the same way about children???? Do all men feel the same way? Just because I am a woman, does not mean that my womb defines who I am as a person. A man is not defined simply by the possession of a penis. I think your sexual attitudes lack dimension and depth. Women are people. And in our world, women are responsible for their own well-being. Sometimes that means ending an unwanted pregnancy. Either you accept that women are intelligent enough, responsible enough and moral enough to weigh their choices and determine what's best for the woman, or you don't. But if you don't think women are intelligent, responsible and moral, then you don't think much of women, do you?
Reading over your diatribe of bitter sarcasm and outright insults, I must ask, when your attitude toward women is so demeaning towards women, how do you not think that you treat women as second-class citizens?
Uh ... my diatribe? I suppose in being caught up in your own delusional world you missed the fact that 70% was quoted material from someone who makes a lot of phony claims about how caring they are, only to prove that caring plays no part in their personality makeup?
Let's get something straight ... my attitude toward women is NOT demeaning AT ALL. I love women. My "demeaning" attitude is reserved for anyone, male or female who demonstrates such disgusting and callous disregard for children that they would compare killing the unborn child as analogous to the removal of a mole! Gender has absolutely NOTHING to do with my contempt for such despicable vileness. OK?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
All women are supposed to feel the same way about children???? Do all men feel the same way? Just because I am a woman, does not mean that my womb defines who I am as a person. A man is not defined simply by the possession of a penis.
Frankly, yes. "Women" should, and do feel very similarly about children, at least insofar as the natural, genetic, inbuilt urge and instinct to protect them, rather than dismiss them as unimportant and unworthy. Those that do not share those fundamental instincts are not to be confused with "women" ... to do so a true example of demeaning all women.
The fact is, you've got it all backwards ... the issue is that just because you possess a womb, doesn't automatically confer the title of "woman". This planet provides a home for way many species possessing wombs than it does for humans, and when it comes to some of the attitudes expressed toward children here ... I use the term "Human" very loosely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
I think your sexual attitudes lack dimension and depth. Women are people. And in our world, women are responsible for their own well-being. Sometimes that means ending an unwanted pregnancy. Either you accept that women are intelligent enough, responsible enough and moral enough to weigh their choices and determine what's best for the woman, or you don't. But if you don't think women are intelligent, responsible and moral, then you don't think much of women, do you?
My attitudes toward sex is not the topic of discussion ... this is about the depraved attitudes expressed demonstrating a fundamental absence of the value of human life. And I do believe that women are intelligent, responsible, and moral ... I think those qualities are what best defines a woman, and not the possession of a "womb".
The issue you seem loath to accept is that a female who believes aborting a child is akin to the removal of a mole is NOT A WOMAN. Nothing whatsoever "womanly" about that, and to classify such a person a "woman" besmirches women everywhere.
I don't consider the mole=child analogy as demonstrating an iota of either intelligence, responsibility, or morality. In fact I find it to be a complete absence of all three.
guns, you are truly the epitome of my way or the highway. I could care less if you think I ma uncaring or other women who are "pro abortion" are not real woman in your mind. woman will never go back to coat hanger day. like it or not we have the right to control our own bodies. like it our not a fetus is NOT a baby. until you can invent or rent a womb it isn't your business.
Uh ... my diatribe? I suppose in being caught up in your own delusional world you missed the fact that 70% was quoted material from someone who makes a lot of phony claims about how caring they are, only to prove that caring plays no part in their personality makeup?
Let's get something straight ... my attitude toward women is NOT demeaning AT ALL. I love women. My "demeaning" attitude is reserved for anyone, male or female who demonstrates such disgusting and callous disregard for children that they would compare killing the unborn child as analogous to the removal of a mole! Gender has absolutely NOTHING to do with my contempt for such despicable vileness. OK?
Frankly, yes. "Women" should, and do feel very similarly about children, at least insofar as the natural, genetic, inbuilt urge and instinct to protect them, rather than dismiss them as unimportant and unworthy. Those that do not share those fundamental instincts are not to be confused with "women" ... to do so a true example of demeaning all women.
The fact is, you've got it all backwards ... the issue is that just because you possess a womb, doesn't automatically confer the title of "woman". This planet provides a home for way many species possessing wombs than it does for humans, and when it comes to some of the attitudes expressed toward children here ... I use the term "Human" very loosely.
My attitudes toward sex is not the topic of discussion ... this is about the depraved attitudes expressed demonstrating a fundamental absence of the value of human life. And I do believe that women are intelligent, responsible, and moral ... I think those qualities are what best defines a woman, and not the possession of a "womb".
The issue you seem loath to accept is that a female who believes aborting a child is akin to the removal of a mole is NOT A WOMAN. Nothing whatsoever "womanly" about that, and to classify such a person a "woman" besmirches women everywhere.
I don't consider the mole=child analogy as demonstrating an iota of either intelligence, responsibility, or morality. In fact I find it to be a complete absence of all three.
Any questions?
I didn't miss anything. Your first diatribe was demeaning, and so is your second. Do you feel that everyone who doesn't share your perspective is less than human?
I find that the longer I live, the more I understand that its quite hard for me to make an accurate decision without putting myself in the shoes of another human being.
I couldn't possibly know what it feels like to be a pregnant woman. What if I were raped? What if I used all of the protections possible, other than abstaining from sex in the first place? What if I found out that the baby was horribly disfigured and would die within minutes from birth? What if I found out that having the baby would mean that I would die in the process?
All questions I, nor any man will ever know, and I venture to say that many women won't know.
If you don't like abortions, then don't get one. Its just that simple.
One might ask "why not put yourself in the shoes of the fetus", which is silly really. For one, the fetus in the first trimester doesn't have a brain, and therefore isn't any more human then a shell of a person lying brain dead in a hospital room, or a corpse in the ground for that matter. The second of course being that they can't wear shoes if they don't have feet.
I respect the position of those who don't want to get an abortion, and think that abortions are wrong. I think that driving below the speed limit on the interstate is wrong also, but I don't tell everyone else they have to drive the speed limit or I'm going to outlaw your ability to drive.
It all boils down to, if you don't want one, don't get one. Nothing more be said.
guns, you are truly the epitome of my way or the highway. I could care less if you think I ma uncaring or other women who are "pro abortion" are not real woman in your mind. woman will never go back to coat hanger day. like it or not we have the right to control our own bodies. like it our not a fetus is NOT a baby. until you can invent or rent a womb it isn't your business.
In life, there are many many shades of gray, where applying absolutes would be unreasonable. Subjective matters of opinion ... which certainly includes a broad rage of definitions regarding right and wrong, and what constitutes morality can vary greatly, person to person. But then, there are certain matters within that context that demands absolute definition and agreement, in order for a civil society to successfully exist. And I can think of no greater example than the absolute requirement for universal acceptance of certain definitive concepts of the value of human life, and particularly how the most vulnerable and defenseless deserve protection from those less enlightened of the human family .... including the protection of the viability of the species as a whole, in defending the future members of society at their most vulnerable stages.
As an individual member of society, neither you nor your womb gets to unilaterally decide when a human life has achieved the status of worthiness, nor is your womb the sole judge of who lives and who dies.
The argument you present .... "it's my womb, so it is my decision" is so totally void of even the slightest iota of legitimacy, this only demonstrates that such matters of importance cannot be left to individual whims, with so many steeped in such selfishness.
It may be your car, but you don't have he right to drive recklessly, endangering others, including your own passengers. Once you make the choice to occupy the drivers seat, you accept the responsibility that comes with that act. And the issue is no longer just about what you want .. what's best for you.
By now, we should have all achieved the knowledge of how pregnancy is facilitated .... and aside the extraordinary cases of involuntary pregnancy, most pregnancies require active participation ... and just like the driver who chooses to sit behind the wheel of their car ... they assume responsibility for any accidents their driving failures result in. You just don't walk away ... dismissing responsibility because it was an "accident"! You're no less responsible for the damage your actions caused.
Same holds true with pregnancy. Once another life takes residence inside your body ... a situation you participated in creating ... it's no longer just about you ... what you want ... what your desires are ... there is another concerned party that is now part of the equation for which you are responsible for.
You want to claim that it is your right to do as you please. You're wrong. Your selfishness, and your rejection of responsibility is what it is ... rationalizing your own irresponsibility .... your irresponsibility led to the pregnancy, and you want to compound the error with greater demonstrations of irresponsibility.
Your "mole" analogy transcends mere irresponsibility, landing squarely in the realm of reprehensible, unacceptable and antisocial tendency. You cannot see this, because in your state of confusion, you believe your selfish desires are all that matters in this world.
In life, there are many many shades of gray, where applying absolutes would be unreasonable. Subjective matters of opinion ... which certainly includes a broad rage of definitions regarding right and wrong, and what constitutes morality can vary greatly, person to person. But then, there are certain matters within that context that demands absolute definition and agreement, in order for a civil society to successfully exist. And I can think of no greater example than the absolute requirement for universal acceptance of certain definitive concepts of the value of human life, and particularly how the most vulnerable and defenseless deserve protection from those less enlightened of the human family .... including the protection of the viability of the species as a whole, in defending the future members of society at their most vulnerable stages.
As an individual member of society, neither you nor your womb gets to unilaterally decide when a human life has achieved the status of worthiness, nor is your womb the sole judge of who lives and who dies.
The argument you present .... "it's my womb, so it is my decision" is so totally void of even the slightest iota of legitimacy, this only demonstrates that such matters of importance cannot be left to individual whims, with so many steeped in such selfishness.
It may be your car, but you don't have he right to drive recklessly, endangering others, including your own passengers. Once you make the choice to occupy the drivers seat, you accept the responsibility that comes with that act. And the issue is no longer just about what you want .. what's best for you.
By now, we should have all achieved the knowledge of how pregnancy is facilitated .... and aside the extraordinary cases of involuntary pregnancy, most pregnancies require active participation ... and just like the driver who chooses to sit behind the wheel of their car ... they assume responsibility for any accidents their driving failures result in. You just don't walk away ... dismissing responsibility because it was an "accident"! You're no less responsible for the damage your actions caused.
Same holds true with pregnancy. Once another life takes residence inside your body ... a situation you participated in creating ... it's no longer just about you ... what you want ... what your desires are ... there is another concerned party that is now part of the equation for which you are responsible for.
You want to claim that it is your right to do as you please. You're wrong. Your selfishness, and your rejection of responsibility is what it is ... rationalizing your own irresponsibility .... your irresponsibility led to the pregnancy, and you want to compound the error with greater demonstrations of irresponsibility.
Your "mole" analogy transcends mere irresponsibility, landing squarely in the realm of reprehensible, unacceptable and antisocial tendency. You cannot see this, because in your state of confusion, you believe your selfish desires are all that matters in this world.
You couldn't be more wrong.
Another diatribe full of insults and demeaning language. You may SAY you like women, but your words and tone don't support such an assertion.
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