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This thread makes me think that some Neo-Cons somehow got stuck in the dark ages. No wonder that most don't believe in evolution: They never experienced any such process.
Alas, our society and our understanding of right and wrong are based on several, deeply-ingrained principles. Here are three:
1.) You are innocent until proven guilty.
2.) If found guilty, you can be punished.
3.) Inflicting physical harm on purpose is not in line with the civilized society we purport to be. (Even spanking a child is frowned upon).
Water boarding is often used on ALLEGED terrorists - violating the first principle.
The death penalty is widely supported by Americans of all political persuasions. Killing someone like Osama does not violate most people's understanding of right or wrong unless they oppose the death penalty on principle (they don't have to be "neo progs" to take that stance).
Water boarding, without a doubt, causes the body to react violently (otherwise there would be no point to it) - thus it violates yet another fundamental principle of our society.
While I think that some people feel less strongly about the violation of the first principle IF water boarding is used on convicted terrorists, I have serious doubt that most are willing to forgo the third principle under any circumstance. And that is why water boarding is perceived as "bad." It goes against what we believe to be: Civilized.
so killing an american citizen in another country without a trial is wrong?
Waterboarding or any other form of torture rarely produces useful information because the victims say what they think their torturers want to hear. Torture also eliminates any chance of the torturers claiming the moral high ground. Torturers are evil no matter the reason.
That's a lot of fail packed into so few words.
Fail One: Waterboarding is torture is a premise you need to argue for, not one you get to assume.
Fail Two: Your nonsense about the effectiveness of torture is moot since it doesn't deal with the CIA waterboarding cases, which were 100% effective on the whopping three known terrorists we waterboarded. How do you reconcile your silly argument that waterboarding isn't effective with the 100% effectiveness of the CIA method? Facts are annoying, aren't they?
Fail Three: How is doing the bare minimum to defend ourselves from terrorist attacks a case of giving up the moral high ground? They are known terrorists, they bomb innocent women and children, they behead civilians, and now comes a simpleton like you to say that waterboarding would put us beneath them morally? What buffoonery.
Fail Four: Torturers may or may not be evil irrespective of their reasons for torturing (which is a premise you need to argue for), but this is all irrelevant because you've failed to explain why the CIA should be considered torturers and not the heroes they are.
The rest of what you say is meaningless drivel stemming from your complete misunderstanding of the basics of this debate.
Have a good day.
Last edited by fiveredapples; 09-30-2011 at 03:24 PM..
Waterboarding is not a torture. Of course it's a very unpleasant experience but not a torture.
The U.S. military waterboards hundreds of our own soldiers every year as a part of their training.
Alas, our society and our understanding of right and wrong are based on several, deeply-ingrained principles. Here are three:
1.) You are innocent until proven guilty.
2.) If found guilty, you can be punished.
3.) Inflicting physical harm on purpose is not in line with the civilized society we purport to be. (Even spanking a child is frowned upon).
Water boarding is often used on ALLEGED terrorists - violating the first principle.
This is more proof that Liberals are mental eunuchs.
You're here giving us tenets of our criminal justice system, not moral principles as you so foolishly believe.
Your first principle doesn't apply to terrorists, now, does it? Obama finally learned the hard way. We'll wait for you to catch on. We'll just be waiting here in the 21st Century, troglodyte.
Your second principle doesn't apply to the waterboarding case because waterboarding wasn't done as a punishment, it was done as a preventive measure (you know, getting information to help thwart our enemies).
Your third principle is so poorly worded that it that it applies to almost nothing and everything. For example, when our parents spank us they are harming us on purpose. Now you're telling us that this goes against our "deeply-ingrained principles" of right and wrong? LOL...LOL....LMAO....Do you ever actually stop to think before you write?
You don't even understand the debate about waterboarding, yet you're here with grand pronouncements about our justice system, er, our "deeply-ingrained principles" about right and wrong?!?
Back away from the keyboard, special one, and go back into your intellectual sandbox.
Last edited by fiveredapples; 09-30-2011 at 03:27 PM..
With what? Neo Progs always go on and on about how wrong water boarding is and that it is torture, a violation of the Geneva Convention, blah, blah, blah, but now they are cheering the killing of this sick puppy. So, which is it; water boarding a terrorist is torture, but murdeingr a terrorist is okay?
Problem with this post is the word "murder".
Legitimate battlefield killing is not something anyone has a problem with and this individual definately had an active operational role in a war he was helping wage against Americans.
So this whole convoluted thread trying to find some hypocricy that is not there is a waste.
Torture of a captive is WRONG and should not be allowed, battlefield killing of an active operational combatant is not wrong and should be encouraged
Neo Progs are incessantly whining about how evil water boarding is, yet they are now rejoicing that Bin Laden took two between the eyes. Help me understand the tortured logic so I don't assume hypocrisy.
Apparently.
If we suspect American citizens might be terrorists, we can kill them with a drone attack, and kill a few dozen other folks at the same time. But if we capture a foreign terrorists in the act of actually committing a terrorist act in the US, or catch them in the act of failing in an attempted terror attack, then we are told to not rush to judgement, and we give them US Constitutional rights and cookies and milk.
Neo Progs are incessantly whining about how evil water boarding is, yet they are now rejoicing that Bin Laden took two between the eyes. Help me understand the tortured logic so I don't assume hypocrisy.
Do you really not understand the difference between justified homicide in combat, and illegal torture of prisoners
You are obsessed. Do you really think OBL would allow himself to be taken alive? I'm sure the US would have LOVED to take him to trial before his execution. Unfortunately, OBL refused to surrender. What should have happened then...should the US have left and tried again the next day hoping to catch OBL in a better mood?
Well, let's see, we know OBL was in his house, we send in special forces personnel, who find this old man in a room wearing his pajamas.... I'm thinking we could have tossed in a gas grenade, or a concussion grenade and captured him alive. Hmmm?
The problem was that 0bama and holder have so screwed up the rules for captured terrorists, that if we did capture 0bama, granted him Constitutional rights, he would have remained silent, and denied us access to any evidence from his computers..etc... In other words, OBL, the most valuable source for information, if captured alive would have not given us any intel at all. So it was better to kill him, and be satisfied with whatever intel was on his computers.
Neo Progs are incessantly whining about how evil water boarding is, yet they are now rejoicing that Bin Laden took two between the eyes. Help me understand the tortured logic so I don't assume hypocrisy.
Both are good.
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Neo Progs always go on and on about how wrong water boarding is and that it is torture, a violation of the Geneva Convention, blah, blah, blah, but now they are cheering the killing of this sick puppy. So, which is it; water boarding a terrorist is torture, but murdeingr a terrorist is okay?
