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View Poll Results: Federal Pay: Keep Frozen or Restart Traditional Automatic Raises?
Restart the traditional automatic step increases and Time-In-Grade increases 17 32.69%
Keep Federal Pay Frozen Until the Feds Are Paid Only Slightly More Than the Private Sector 34 65.38%
I don't care about this stuff. Its boring. Hey...how about that American Idol Finale? 1 1.92%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-27-2011, 06:24 PM
 
Location: North America
5,960 posts, read 5,536,363 times
Reputation: 1951

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineVA View Post
Actually none of us really mind sacrificing. There's been a lot of talk about it at work.

What we don't like are the generalizations:

1. You make more that the private sector employees. Well we've seen that we actually don't in so many instances. That's fine. If you need to cut to save money, do it, but don't paint us with some broad brush stroke that we're all fat cats. Some are overpaid, and generally those tend to be the 20 year mailroom clerk or the 25 year "secretary". They do much better in the government. The engineer---eeeh, not so much. Cut because the country is broke, don't try to make us out to be evil.

2. Big fat pensions: we don't have them. After 1984, any person obtaining government employment was put in FERS. The CSRS pension was not available anymore. Under FERS you have a 401K plan that government does matching with (just like all the private companies I worked for). I believe it is up to 5% of what you contribute. We also get an annuity. That annuity will pay you 1% of your highest three years of salary for each year you worked. So if I worked for 20 years and my high three averaged out to $100,000, I would get a pension of $20,000 per year plus live off my 401K and Social Security. The pension is not totally given to us, we do contribute a small amount each paycheck toward the pension. Now, I won't **** off ANY money but, I am likely to retire with this $20,000 a year pension. I'm sure I'll need it but it's not anything so wonderful that it's making me stay in my government job. My friend who works for SAIC (under a government-paid contract) gets a much better deal thab me. She also gets a 401K with matching, better health insurance premiums, PLUS she gets the ability to buy into SAIC stock options and very big bonuses each year.

Now I realize that much of the country is suffering; however, it's really hard to compare what goes on in one area compared to others. I think in some areas the government employees are living like fat cats and in others they live subpar to the private sector (DC namely). When you take a locale like DC and you start stripping away workers benefits, pay, and denigrating them by making them scapegoats because you're angry that they might have something you don't, you don't realize what you're creating.

What's going to happen is that the government workers (in a good market) will be dessimated, will leave federal service (I know I will) and go work for the #2 and #3 employers in the DC area (SAIC and Northrup Grumman). The government won't save any money at all, they'll just have the contractors (their buddies) pick it up, pat themselves on the back for decreasing the government payroll numbers and the budget will continue to blow up.

I don't really care. I always have a job waiting for me back at employer #2 and #3 and, to be honest, I might welcome it. Less responsibility for me, I will get a holiday party again, and I will be able to use a restroom that has marble floors and twice a day cleaning (oh and no mice infestations).
Wow.

Your response was pretty good and all and you laid out the situation quite well...

But while reading it I couldn't help but to think that you are WAY out of touch about what is going on in the real world:

Thousands Line Up For Hundreds Of Jobs | KSEE 24 News - Central Valley's News Station: Fresno-Visalia - News, Sports, Weather | Local News


YouTube - ‪Thousands line up for jobs in Hamtramck, Michigan‬‏

Intercontinental hotel job openings draw thousands of applicants - NYPOST.com


YouTube - ‪Thousands Line Up for Atlanta Job Fair‬‏

Thousands line up for Six Flags job fair *| ajc.com

This is the REAL world your response ignored.

Not a personal comment; it read like something any government veteran would write. I understand why any government bureaucrat would fight like hell to keep his or her cushy job during this Great Recession.

But the reality is very few Americans have ANY perks or guarantees. And that's just the Americans who are lucky enough to have ANY job.

Its not your fault directly, of course, but many out here feel that the government has gotten way out of hand and government "civil servants" scoop up all of these benefits and perks without actually contributing much to the country. We pay their salaries after all and what have we gotten?

Sure there are important government jobs (contract reviewers, middle managers, EEO assistants, diversity officers, etc.) but if you laid off half of the Federal workforce it would have very little effect outside of Washington.

This country survived quite well with half as many federal bureaucrats for nearly 150 years. I think it could survive quite well without them going forward.
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Old 05-27-2011, 06:44 PM
 
12,905 posts, read 15,614,527 times
Reputation: 9393
Quote:
Originally Posted by clb10 View Post
Wow.

Your response was pretty good and all and you laid out the situation quite well...

But while reading it I couldn't help but to think that you are WAY out of touch about what is going on in the real world:

Thousands Line Up For Hundreds Of Jobs | KSEE 24 News - Central Valley's News Station: Fresno-Visalia - News, Sports, Weather | Local News


YouTube - ‪Thousands line up for jobs in Hamtramck, Michigan‬‏

Intercontinental hotel job openings draw thousands of applicants - NYPOST.com


YouTube - ‪Thousands Line Up for Atlanta Job Fair‬‏

Thousands line up for Six Flags job fair *| ajc.com

This is the REAL world your response ignored.

Not a personal comment; it read like something any government veteran would write. I understand why any government bureaucrat would fight like hell to keep his or her cushy job during this Great Recession.

But the reality is very few Americans have ANY perks or guarantees. And that's just the Americans who are lucky enough to have ANY job.

Its not your fault directly, of course, but many out here feel that the government has gotten way out of hand and government "civil servants" scoop up all of these benefits and perks without actually contributing much to the country. We pay their salaries after all and what have we gotten?

Sure there are important government jobs (contract reviewers, middle managers, EEO assistants, diversity officers, etc.) but if you laid off half of the Federal workforce it would have very little effect outside of Washington.

This country survived quite well with half as many federal bureaucrats. I think it could survive quite well without them.

I will agree with you that I'm out of touch with all of America. But I want to point out that it's not because I am a goverment worker (I know I've said this ad nauseum but I've only been a fed for 3 years, my prior 20 plus years in the work force have all been private sector). I am out of touch because I work in DC. We have been pretty much untouched by this recession. I am keenly aware of that and am thankful. I am aware how awful it is in other parts of the country.

I don't think, per capita, we had half the government workers we do now. According to today's Federal Diary in the WaPO: Executive-branch civilian employment, excluding the postal service, was 21 million in FY2009. However, in at least 2 dozen years, from 1967 through 1993, the workforce was bigger than that. Furthemore, on a per capita basis, executive branch employment is at its lowest level in 50 years.

As to your statement that the general public isn't served by the government, you really can't know that. I work in the government and there are a LOT of things I do. Do that impact anyone I know? Most certainly not but I know for a fact that they impact a ton of people that I will never meet or know their names. But I know they are overseas, hopefully benefitting from the fact that I show up everyday and get my work out the door in a VERY timely matter. My work will never affect people I know personally, but it does impact so many others.

As far as laying off half the federal workers, I don't know if that would go unnoticed. What I have noticed on the inside is that our offices have a LOT of work. And I personally don't think people complete their work fast enough. I would venture to say that a third of the people that I come in contact with are not fireballs in the workplace. They move too slow, they don't come in a lot, they aren't very smart. These people should be let go or put in lower positions (pay commensurate) into a job that they CAN do. That's the biggest disservice in the government, although I saw plenty of it in the private sector too.
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,167,795 times
Reputation: 7373
Since I love statistics and facts:

Using the price level of 1969 as the base for the index, the CPI-W had risen to 569 by 2009, meaning that consumer prices had risen by 469% over a 40-year period. This represents an average annual increase in consumer prices of 4.4% over the period from 1969 to 2009.

Over the same period, wages and salaries rose at an average annual rate of 5.1%, or 0.7% faster than prices.

Adjustments in pay for civilian federal employees grew more slowly than consumer prices over the period shown in Table 1, standing at an index value of 518 in 2009, compared to a CPI-W of 569.


http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/94-971_20101207.pdf


As the chart on the last page shows, between 1969 and 2010, the federal pay increased by 428%, while private wages and salaries increased by 632.3%.
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:09 PM
 
Location: Flippin AR
5,513 posts, read 5,230,375 times
Reputation: 6242
Where's the poll choice that ALL government salaries be reduced to be on par with private sector workers? Also equalize their benefit packages, their contributions to their benefits, and the number of hours per week required, along with the fewer vacation days now standard in the private sector.

Also, they need to be put in the Social Security system--dump their retirement funds into the SS system and give them the same benefits us little guys get. Why in the world would government workers get a much better retirement package than the rest of us--they're the ones who came up with the Ponzi Scam!
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
14,044 posts, read 27,167,795 times
Reputation: 7373
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHartphotog View Post
Where's the poll choice that ALL government salaries be reduced to be on par with private sector workers? Also equalize their benefit packages, their contributions to their benefits, and the number of hours per week required, along with the fewer vacation days now standard in the private sector.

Also, they need to be put in the Social Security system--dump their retirement funds into the SS system and give them the same benefits us little guys get. Why in the world would government workers get a much better retirement package than the rest of us--they're the ones who came up with the Ponzi Scam!
Federal employees hired over the past 25+ years are in the Social Security system.
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:23 PM
 
Location: Southcentral Kansas
44,882 posts, read 33,209,134 times
Reputation: 4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by clb10 View Post
Look. I don't know you and I don't know if your a government lifer.

But that is EXACTLY the attitude that America is sick of.

While most Americans are just trying to scrape by in this recession the government paper-pusher is saying, "Hey leave my benefit package, perks and pay alone and pay attention to the guy above me. He's the one who is really getting over.

Of course, when you knock on his door, that guy says THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THE GUY ABOVE HIM!

That "pass the buck", D.C. attitude is what people are just sick and tired of AND ITS GOT TO STOP!!

Government Workers: ITS TIME THAT YOU SACRIFICE ALONG WITH THE REST OF US OUT HERE! THE PRIVILEGE STOPS NOW!!
I have been reading and really enjoying all this Pelosi. I wonder who here can tell me when the last time we SS people got a COLA raise.
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:00 PM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,670,896 times
Reputation: 14737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyqueen801 View Post
That's pretty shocking that there are a lot of federal jobs in the country's capital.
i know, really? you'd think it would be common sense.
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:39 PM
 
Location: state of procrastination
3,485 posts, read 7,295,273 times
Reputation: 2913
Just fire them.
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Old 05-27-2011, 08:41 PM
 
Location: Long Island
57,073 posts, read 26,024,198 times
Reputation: 15531
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineVA View Post
I couldn't vote because it still hasn't been proven out that an honest to goodness apples-to-apples comparison has been made between public and private sector. And averages don't mean much to me because salaries vary widely in locales.

For instance, my father in law was a GS-13 in DC and had an average living yet when he moved to Asheville as a GS-13 who "lived like a king" in his words and made a lot more than the average Asheville, NC worker.

I was private sector for 18 years in my field and moved to the government 3 years ago. It was a lateral salary move for me and, even if I went back now, still a lateral. In the DC area, IN MY FIELD, is seems pretty on par.

Having said that, I am AGAINST automatic increases and was a fan of the Pay for Performance system that was recently thrown out of DoD. I still think it should be Pay for Performance and not automatic.

As a private sector employee, I got at least an automatic 4% increase each year, it was not based on my performance and was instead based on the more they could charge the government for me, the more fee they would bring in, so it behooved them to always raise me up every year whether I did well or not.

Additionally, the contractor employee cost the government a lot more than the FERS civil servant.

This issue is too complex for a soundbite answer.
You are considering a government contract position as private industry? Seem like a rather similar position don't you think since the government is paying?
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:38 AM
 
12,905 posts, read 15,614,527 times
Reputation: 9393
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHartphotog View Post
Where's the poll choice that ALL government salaries be reduced to be on par with private sector workers? Also equalize their benefit packages, their contributions to their benefits, and the number of hours per week required, along with the fewer vacation days now standard in the private sector.

Also, they need to be put in the Social Security system--dump their retirement funds into the SS system and give them the same benefits us little guys get. Why in the world would government workers get a much better retirement package than the rest of us--they're the ones who came up with the Ponzi Scam!
Please let me know if there is a "standard" benefit package, contribution rate, and work hours schedule that the private sector has? I work closely with the private sector. In my area, most of them are doing better than me and half of the contractors I work with can't be found most afternoons. If they work an 8 hour day, well, they need a pat on the back. I realize not all contractors are like this, but many are. Just how would you determine that? If the government wants to remain "competitive" for smart employees in the DC or San Francisco area, they need to be able to compete for employees in those individual markets.

OPM always seems to be comparing benefits to try to redefine the feds benefits. Just two years ago they came up with the idea that feds fall short of benefits in comparison to Fortune 500 companies and there was a push to get paid parental leave added. Now, I'm the first to admit that I don't think federal employees should be compared to Fortune 500 employees. Those companies make huge profits, the government doesn't and why does anyone think we should get those perks. Most government folks also thought the paid parental leave was a stupid idea and people should just save their leave. My point is, what are you going to use as a comparison to make sure the feds are "equal" to the private sector.

Making them "race to the bottom" with benefits of failing companies in say Ohio or Michigan is kind of dumb isn't it? Everyone would leave and go work for the private sector. I know you think "good on 'em" but there are some functions that are inherently government that you'd be crazy to let a profiteer stick their hands in. And no, that's not the business of cutting stupid social security checks which is all most people on the outside think get done.

Another thing I often ponder when statements are made that the public sector employees should be in line with private? Is that because some private companies are now failing? Did you feel that way when companies were making record profits (and some still are) and the economy was booming. I think not. As NewtoCA posted:
Quote:
As the chart on the last page shows, between 1969 and 2010, the federal pay increased by 428%, while private wages and salaries increased by 632.3%.

It amazes me how much, in this country, people want so badly to see others taken down even if it doesn't make a difference to the budget, even if they really don't have their facts straight about what federal employees do and don't get. It amazes me that no matter how much facts are posted, they still think we are getting an $80,000 a year pension, don't pay into social security, and don't even pay towards are retirement. The GOP has done a fine job at building their strawman to burn publicly.
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