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If a 1% tax goes to 2%, it's not a 1% increase, it's a 100% tax increase.
Yes, if you are using a percent increase over the original baseline it would be 11.5%, but then they also would have experienced an 11.5 % decrease when the rate went from 39.4% to 35% in 2001. Still it amounts to 4.4% increase or decrease out of pocket.
The truth is somewhere in between all of this. Yes, many poor people are productive but haven't figured out how to make it pay. But there is a segment of "the poor" who have lived generations in public housing, gotten used to food stamps, SSI & other welfare benefits. Many of these folks will not work unless they want to & are not the people you see going any extra miles to do better work. I've had a couple of friends from that category. The ones who got past that mentality are doing fairly well. The ones that didn't are still living in the slums, dependent on that next welfare check. No amount of $ can lift up a person in that situation, short of a nonstop printing press.
I have had my share of modest affluence and relative poverty. I have never tasted the extremes at either end, thank God. I have been fortunate. Most of my failures have been my own foolishness and a few from misfortunes that just happen. Any successes have been partly my hard work, partly help from family, etc.
The rich include many people who have worked hard to build up businesses, establish careers, etc. It also includes some who were born in luxury & have never had to work a day for anything. Then too, even a guy with inherited wealth cannot be totally lazy & carefree. If he doesn't learn how to wisely use & nurture that wealth, he won't have it long & may have to flip hamburgers later on. There is much debate on the rich dodging taxes in many ways. Some of that may be true. However; consider that when a rich person starts or continues a business, he provides at least a few jobs for other people. When he buys his expensive toys, at least a few people make a living selling them or maintaining them. When a poor person gets welfare checks & public housing, no one else benefits from that & the taxpayers take a hit.
I favor doing away with federal income taxes and starting up The Fair Tax. This is a plan for a 22% sales tax on all goods & services at the retail level. Look up Americans For Fair Taxation: Americans For Fair Taxation. Sounds high, but 22% is lower than most people's income tax rates. The prices we pay for most things now have a lot of "imbedded taxes" included. All other taxes paid along the way to a product on the market have to be recovered in the sale price. By doing away with other taxes, 1 tax is paid 1 time. Personally, I favor a lesser rate but I love the idea. 1 tax across the board is much easier to collect and account for than multiple taxes at all levels. A lot of $ is spent chasing taxes, avoiding taxes, etc. 90% of all accountants are mostly doing taxes. Taxes figure into every plan of every manufacturer. Since everyone buys things, the fair tax comes much closer to everyone being part of it Since the rich buy more things & more costly things, they will pay more, but pay it at the same %. Since the poor buy fewer and cheaper things, they will pay less. This way, you don't lose 25 to 30% of your paycheck in deductions. You don't get taxed on your savings accounts, CD's, stock investments, etc. Your $ is your's to keep.
This will not do away with state income taxes of course, but it is a big step. I am sure some states would follow along. A few states already do not have income taxes. The more of your $ you keep up front, the more you have to make your own decisions with. The down side is that accountants would have to scramble for other business. But I think they may well find their niche then by doing investment counseling, helping people invest & profit from their savings.
We should all do everything we can to examine how we spend our money, what we have to show for it, etc. Most all of us can at least do better than we are now. Focusing on building ourselves up is much better than nurturing our jealousies of those more fortunate. In fact, we should observe some of "them". Maybe we can learn something. I speak not from a pulpit but from the floor. I have done at least as many dumb things with money as anyone else. Still learning.
Just as soon as we can undo all the military spending, get rid of nearly 40 million people, undo the benefits to the additional retirees/medicare/medicaid/CHIP recipients, and undo the economic debacle that has plagued this nation since 2001.
I prefer to work and save and invest and live within my means than ***** and moan about what other people have.
I don't expect anything from you, but I also don't want to be a crutch for you.
If you're really one of us, doesn't that make you a traitor to your own people ? It's us against THEM and always has been. You should never turn on your own.
Just as soon as we can undo all the military spending, get rid of nearly 40 million people, undo the benefits to the additional retirees/medicare/medicaid/CHIP recipients, and undo the economic debacle that has plagued this nation since 2001.
Until then, just undo the tax cuts.
That's beautiful and particularly relevant to me. Without those 40 million superfluous people, I may have been able to get a job straight out of college. But alas, I am one of the real people who lost a pretty much promised job as a catering chef when I overheard one of the owners telling the kitchen manager that they could hire *Points to a non-educated-non english speaking hispanic* Lupe instead of me (you know, the one who went into debt and busted her ass for the job), the extern from culinary school and she could do my job as well and the dishwashing job (presumeably to save a few bucks).
Yeh..until this daily situation for more and more legal citizens is reversed then yeh, just undo the freakin' cuts. Millions of legal citizens incurring debt for a good education thank you as well.
Last edited by Bandon; 06-07-2011 at 04:16 PM..
Reason: correct spelling
That's beautiful and particularly relevant to me. Without those 40 million superfluous people, I may have been able to get a job straight out of college. But alas, I am one of the real people who lost a pretty much promised job as a catering chef when I overheard one of the owners telling the kitchen manager that they could hire *Points to a non-educated-non english speaking hispanic* Lupe instead of me (you know, the one who went into debt and busted her ass for the job), the extern from culinary school and she could do my job as well and the dishwashing job (presumeably to save a few bucks).
Yeh..until this daily situation for more and more legal citizens is reversed then yeh, just undo the freakin' cuts. Millions of legal citizens incurring debt for a good education thank you as well.
This is another reason to crack down heavily on illegal immigration. I have no problem with anyone coming here for a better life. But people coming illegally overflow our systems, our schools, our job market, etc. I am an electrician with my own small business. Illegals have cost me a lot of work, doing substandard work for a lot less $, but try to find him when something goes wrong. He has no insurance if he messes up or burns down your house. Anyone knowingly hiring an illegal should be penalized heavily. Another point to this too. If immigration is well managed, those here legally will find a better situation too. They are less likely to be suspected illegals, will be more readily accepted in communities, etc. I have heard some immigrants say this, enough to make a good point of it.
It sounds good & it appeals to that streak of envy in many of us. Yes, I've thought that way too, in times past. I still think those with a lot of wealth should do what they can to help others. The Bible says to whom much has been given, much is required. But it does not say the powers that be should force compliance with this moral guideline. Tearing down others does not help us to any real degree.
I have no doubt that most people, regardless of family circumstances and background, have the intelligence and ability to gain wealth to some degree, naturally some more than others. But most of us have not been taught the principles & ways to do that. A few have their own vision and do it more or less on their own power. Others need more teaching, coaching, etc. But there are the people out there like Famous Amos, who came up with Famous Amos cookies. I think he was just an average guy who persevered until he found a way to produce & sell his cookies. Last year, an elderly Black woman was in the paper, she had worked as a maid & did laundry for others; a lowly type of job to most people. She somehow saved up over $100,000 & I think left it to a college in her town. She started out with nothing. From 0 to 100K ain't too shabby, earning as little as she mostly did.
I look back over the years & think of where I would be if I had used my head more often. 1 prime example. Working as an electrician's helper in the 1970's, I use to think all the time that we needed a better way to staple up wire under a house. Wire had to be up securely, preventing sagging. Took a lot of staples. I thought we should have a clamp of some kind, with an attached nail & multiple slots. Could drive it up and put several wires in 1 clamp. Talked about it over beers at night with buddies, thought "no if it was a good idea, someone would have already done it. I got away from that kind of work for a good many years. Got back into it in the 90's. 1 guy I worked for handed me a box of staples and bag of something called "stackers". I pulled one out and was sick. The exact kind of thing I had thought of 20 ears earlier. Instead of partying, I should have been on the back porch, piecing together models of that idea. I could have patented that and sold it or contracted someone to produce it.
I turned down a few chances to do some ventures with other people. Some failed, but some did well. An old and wise man once told me that I would "pay some tuition", investing and taking risks. A few losses would have been well worth it. I can think of thousands of dollars I spent, out drinking & partying of all kinds. 2 problems there; drinking costs a fair amount just for the beverage of choice, and also impairs judgment, making it too easy to spend all the more. I remember a few times on payday, cashing check and going out. Someone buys drinks for the house. I think how cool that is and do the same, then go home broke again until next week. All this time, I seldom saved any $, when I could have done so. If I had spent some $ in good investments, it would have been silently working for me. My sister was like our parents and saved carefully. 50 years later, she probably still has part of the first dollar she earned at age 12. She never had to ask anyone for anything, has always had money for any emergency she's had. Like Mom & Dad, she bought cars & payed cash. Wanted something expensive? Saved additional $ just for that item. Bought & paid cash, no credit payments. She has credit cards now, like most people, but has never run a balance on them.
We must all find ways to see what we have been missing and take opportunities as they come. The world is changing every 10 minutes & we have to be ready to find and take opportunities around us.
No doubt you didn't take any economics courses. Wages/Salaries are determined by Supply & Demand. Advertising Executives are in high demand and short supply
Not so. Neither are CEO's, and mysteriously it defies supply and demand rules since reaganomic 80's. Coincidence? I think not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
That's your fault, but fortunately for you, you also get to blame your parents and grand-parents.
You tilted the playing field so far in to your advantage and you benefited from that, but you lacked the mental capacity, foresight, will and intestinal fortitude to consider the possibility that one day the playing field would be leveled and you would have to compete with the rest of the world on equal terms.
That day has come.
You're a living example of everything wrong with fatherhood today. You're blaming youth for what YOU did, what you sold down the river, what you failed to protect. You offer them no legitimate guidance, don't listen to a damn word they're saying, presume laziness, and all but spit upon them with condescension. Your cannibal economic plan sucks and your cannibal lifestyle is incompatible with civilization of any kind. Nothing a can of bear mace and a one way ticket to antarctica wouldn't solve.
These kids tilted not one thing. This all happened on our watch, not theirs. Massive global trade imbalances for decades isn't a level field and you know it. Enough with your BS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Being wealthy does not grant anyone any special rights or privileges, yet that is exactly what you have done, grant them such rights and privileges. I suppose in part it might be due to the fact that everyone believes they will be wealthy one day, and they want to right the rules.
Sure it does. Ask Exxon how to install supreme court judges and get verdicts overturned. Ask xyz financial institutions how to write legislation to restructure so that organized crime has a respectable corporate face. They aren't alone. Petition the UN to flatten K street. That would be a start.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
That's exactly what will happen. Everyone is willing to pay their fare share, but fare share means providing needed services, not subsidizing life-styles of those who cannot live within their means.
Affordable health care is not a life style choice. It's the difference between life and dying of curable diseases. You've contradicted yourself all over the place replete with petty grammar corrections only to swap out bus fare for fair trade and 'right' the rules yourself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
You tilted the playing field so far to your advantage that you denied others in the rest of the world the opportunities you have.
You haven't any clue who "You" is.
Contradictions continue to stack. Is it infinite pie, or not? If NY is successful, that means TX is compelled to fail to thrive? Not at all, but you're selling it. American successes were an opportunity to copy the model in local economies abroad. They were an opportunity to fair trade invest there, if only social & political stability were in place. Fighting other people's civil wars isn't anything we can help out with, unfortunately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Now BRIC is working their magic, doing those things that a, um, "Christian Nation" like the US should have been doing all along, investing in people, building schools and roads, putting up electrical power, sewers, water lines and such
And when this Christian nation did so, thugs took over. When we did so, the locals who did not see fit to pursue the fuller education to maintain it/ take the reigns themselves let it go to seed. Not unlike the farce of nation building in Iraq. 1 million dead and antiquities looted to hell. Billions of dollars for schools missing in action. Not one functional school built. Not a single goddamn one.
BRIC is where investors ran in panic. BRIC isn't any more solid than Peru or Indonesia was years ago when financial shenanigans inflicted havoc on huge swaths of the population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
and sharing the profits from the resources of those developing nations with the people of developing nations, and now the playing field is being leveled, and you're getting a taste of your own medicine, and it would seem you don't like it.
Whether you actively participated or stood by on the sidelines like a cheerleader, you caused this to happen.
That's hateful ignorance you're dumping. Consumers do not get benefit nor do they decide a farmer gets 2% of the retail price while another weasel gets 90% for moving a piece of paper across a desk. Fact is for the better part of the century American citizens in general, and some high minded politicians, have struggled to facilitate economic parity. How they went about it might leave much to be desired by quite a few, failed experiments were bound to occur, but nonetheless, your irrational hatred pointed at kids is your own vomit dumping on their heads. And you have the nerve to call them evil? They're looking at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
NAFTA and all the other "trade things" don't matter. What matters is reality, and the reality is that the US economically oppressed 3/5th of the world's population.
Really? We the people set prices for local goods all over the world? We the people invented their system of currency? We the people determined their laws, their priorities, their diets, their investment in education? Your hubris is staggering. Oppression happening to 3/5ths of the world means the rest of us average Americans weren't, by the exact same forces, equally being oppressed? That's the same mystical mathematics I've heard from the black community believing poverty only applied to themselves and none others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
Except now the US no longer has the power to do that, and BRIC is enriching the lives of people. They have money now, and they want to buy things.
They had the money before the financial crisis and they wanted to buy things then. China had an economy before Nixon went there as well. The entire world does not need to be broken down into billions of zero sum games.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea
You're like the Borg. You swarm in like locusts, extract the wealth and profits from a nation and oppress the people with dictators, and when you're done, you move on, except now there's nowhere to move onto.
That accusation belongs to the 5% wealthy class of the planet, not 95% of world population which includes the people you're addressing in this forum. Whatever dirty dealing transpires between world leaders and uber wealth it's not as if a nations majority, or even world majority, ever consented with their plan. It's what abuses of authority get away with beyond the knowledge and reach of most.
Fact is that 5% wealthy class of the planet are nations unto themselves when they're in the position to control multiple currencies and pit nations against one another for profit. They can get by on mass murder with impunity floating around with a long series of ports of convenience flags on their yachts. "Level playing fields" meaning equal corruption from USA to China to Egypt to Russia. Level playing fields meaning lower USA standard of living to rice paddies. Level playing fields meaning abandon sovereignty and play dead when financial pirates operating beyond international law are assaulting. Enough with dumping on kids to blame. Lie about 2 bachelors degrees, lie about former teacher- I really don't care what you call yourself. Throwing kids under the bus is what you've got to offer? Hold it right there fella.
You and like minded extremists made a career out of breaking Americas faith in itself because it is yourself unfit for this nation, yourself worshiping yourself, and yourself unworthy of anything worth having. These are your own issues, your own sick choices, and no sane individual ought to follow. Enjoy your anarchy while it lasts. The power company knows where you live.
"Redistribution" of wealth is the gleam in the eye of many liberals. Nothing new about it, even in 2020 when Bill DeBlasio tries to push it. It's nothing more than theft and distribution of the stolen goods.
But he seems to think that if you do something "good" with the stolen money, somehow that make the theft OK.
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