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The problem with 'under God' is that it makes a sincere recitation of the Pledge impossible for tens of millions of entirely patriotic Americans who would otherwise very much want to recite it.
I'd have to agree with you there. As an atheist, I feel strange pledging allegiance to my country "under" a god in which I do not believe. Cognitive dissonance, I suppose.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
And the reference very much is to a particular God. There is only one religion that names its deity that and spells it that way. Both the intent and effect of the current wording are to establish Christians as a group that is officially sanctioned and endorsed, and to withhold that sanction and endorsement from other groups. As I said, it is impossible for tens of millions of entirely patriotic Americans to go along with that...
Here I think you're mistaken. "God" is a common noun in English as well as a proper noun, and Christianity is not the only monotheistic religion practiced in America (Consider Unitarians, for example.)
The Supreme Court got it right for once when it recognized that the phrase "under God" is an expression of civic theism, rather than faith in the deity of any particular religion. If you're skeptical, remember that Abraham Lincoln--who was not a Christian and said so--used the same phrase in his Gettysburg address. Walt Whitman likewise believed in God, but he didn't the believe in the Bible. There's a pretty long list of non-Christian theists in American history.
I'd have to agree with you there. As an atheist, I feel strange pledging allegiance to my country "under" a god in which I do not believe. Cognitive dissonance, I suppose.
Here I think you're mistaken. "God" is a common noun in English as well as a proper noun, and Christianity is not the only monotheistic religion practiced in America (Consider Unitarians, for example.)
The Supreme Court got it right for once when it recognized that the phrase "under God" is an expression of civic theism, rather than faith in the deity of any particular religion. If you're skeptical, remember that Abraham Lincoln--who was not a Christian and said so--used the same phrase in his Gettysburg address. Walt Whitman likewise believed in God, but he didn't the believe in the Bible. There's a pretty long list of non-Christian theists in American history.
Most of the Framers were a bunch of freethinkers, as they called them. Loosely, if at all, religious.
I could get on board with a non-sectarian moment of silence. Even an atheist has to admit to the objective value of having the little hooligans keep still for a few minutes.
Here I think you're mistaken. "God" is a common noun in English as well as a proper noun...
Common nouns are not capitalized. Proper nouns are. If you have any doubt as to the specfifc intent and meaning of the words, read the pleadings that led up to their incorporation into the Pledge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellinghamite
...and Christianity is not the only monotheistic religion practiced in America (Consider Unitarians, for example.)
Certainly Unitarianism is a monotheistic religion, but its deity is the same one as that of trinitarian Christianity -- God. No other religion recognizes, much less worships, the entity described by that word.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellinghamite
The Supreme Court got it right for once when it recognized that the phrase "under God" is an expression of civic theism, rather than faith in the deity of any particular religion.
Which case do you have in mind here? It rings of O'Connor's opinion in Newdow excusing 'under God' as something called ceremonial deism, a concept for which no standing definition was offered. None was apparently necessary, given her view that any religious freight that the words had been meant to carry had long been lost through rote repetition. Thus did she defend daily recitation of the Pledge...on the grounds that this very practice robs the Pledge of its actual and intended meaning. If that's the opinion you mean to refer to, I would have to disagree with your characterization of it as having gotten very much right at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellinghamite
If you're skeptical, remember that Abraham Lincoln--who was not a Christian and said so--used the same phrase in his Gettysburg address. Walt Whitman likewise believed in God, but he didn't the believe in the Bible. There's a pretty long list of non-Christian theists in American history.
The Gettysburg Address was a presidential speech. Walt Whitman was a poet, author, and essayist. The Pledge of Allegiance is on an entirely different plane from either one of them.
Where I went to elementary and middle school, I was a lone WASP in a sea of Jewish and Catholic kids. The Catholic kids got out early one day a week to go to Catechism. The Jewish kids were excused from school for the High Holy days as well as weekly Hebrew school.
We never said a blessing before lunch or anything like that.
I do remember having "a moment of silence" for JFK, RFK, and MLK.
I certainly do not have a problem with setting aside some time for quiet reflection.
And if there must be a religious tone to it, I don't think God needs or wants representation from any particular denomination.
To God the embattled masses shout,
God save the Queen!
God save the King!
God save this, that, and every other thing...
"Great God" said God, "I've got my work cut out!"
Common nouns are not capitalized. Proper nouns are.
In this case, I used the word "god" to begin a sentence. Any word that begins a sentence is captialized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Certainly Unitarianism is a monotheistic religion, but its deity is the same one as that of trinitarian Christianity -- God. No other religion recognizes, much less worships, the entity described by that word.
That is a result of the English language's paucity of words for deity. When English-speaking persons talk about Hindu deities, the latter are routinely referred to as "gods." The word "god" can be as nebulous as any reference to a "higher power" that one might hear about at a twelve-step group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista
Which case do you have in mind here? It rings of O'Connor's opinion in Newdow excusing 'under God' as something called ceremonial deism, a concept for which no standing definition was offered. None was apparently necessary, given her view that any religious freight that the words had been meant to carry had long been lost through rote repetition. Thus did she defend daily recitation of the Pledge...on the grounds that this very practice robs the Pledge of its actual and intended meaning. If that's the opinion you mean to refer to, I would have to disagree with your characterization of it as having gotten very much right at all.
Your argument seems to imply that the phrase "under God" cannot connote anything different for Americans who recite the Pledge now than it did for the Congress that added it fifty years ago. Most people today don't even know that Congress ever did add words to the Pledge, let alone why.
In this case, I used the word "god" to begin a sentence. Any word that begins a sentence is captialized.
This would perhaps have some relevance if the word 'God' began a sentence in the Pledge. It does not. Yet it is capitalized. It is a proper noun, as used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellinghamite
That is a result of the English language's paucity of words for deity. When English-speaking persons talk about Hindu deities, the latter are routinely referred to as "gods." The word "god" can be as nebulous as any reference to a "higher power" that one might hear about at a twelve-step group.
There may be Hindu gods, but there is no God in Hindu. The word, when capitalized, is quite precise and particular to the deity of a different and single religion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bellinghamite
Your argument seems to imply that the phrase "under God" cannot connote anything different for Americans who recite the Pledge now than it did for the Congress that added it fifty years ago. Most people today don't even know that Congress ever did add words to the Pledge, let alone why.
This is the O'Connor defense. The Pledge has become so worn down by repetition that it has ceased to have any actual meaning at all. Just some senseless mumbo-jumbo that you have to babble your way through every now and then. In that sort of light, it has become an insult to both God and Country that ought to be done away with entirely.
Well this is an easy one to answer. Since the only religion allowed to pray in school in America are the muslims, you will have to ask a muslim.
You should look it up. Everyone is allowed to pray in school. What's not allowed is for agencies of the state to endorse, promote, or in anyway compel religion onto people. Even (and perhaps especially) little people.
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