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Old 03-11-2013, 12:44 PM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
11,291 posts, read 7,930,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kidkaos2 View Post
There are tons of social conservative/economic liberals out there. They're called neocons. George Bush for one.
Nonsense


That has nothing to do with being economically liberal. All you're saying is that you are against corporatism. Being fiscally liberal or being fiscally conservative has to do with how big government is and how much money it spends. It has nothing to do with being against crony capitalism. The conservative Tea Party was formed in the first place to protest corporate bailouts. The liberal Obama conducted corporate bailouts. You're not judging fiscal liberalism/conservatism by the right measurement.
More nonsense. As I said, most people march in lock-step.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:21 PM
 
7,359 posts, read 5,106,950 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
More nonsense. As I said, most people march in lock-step.
Sorry if you don't like the fact that neocons are socially conservative and economically liberal while you claim to be socially conservative and economically liberal, but facts are facts. Doesn't mean you're a neocon but it does mean your claim that people who are socially conservative and economically liberal are few and far between is false. And your description of economically conservative people as being for corporate power over the people is also false.

Denying that doesn't change it.

The only thing I'm marching in lockstep with is the truth. Words mean things. "Economically conservative" doesn't mean "corporatism". And "neocons" are "economically liberal and socially conservative". You're simply wrong.

Socially Conservative, Economically Liberal | Brian J. Lund

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism:

Quote:
During the early 1970s, Socialist Michael Harrington was one of the first to use "neoconservative" in its modern meaning. He characterized neoconservatives as former leftists – whom he derided as "socialists for Nixon" – who had become more conservative.These people tended to remain endorsers of social democracy, but distinguished themselves by allying with the Nixon administration with respect to foreign policy, especially by their endorsement of the Vietnam War and opposition to the USSR. They still endorsed the welfare state, but not necessarily in its contemporary form.

While neoconservatism is concerned primarily with foreign policy, there is also some discussion of internal economic policies. Neoconservatism generally endorses free markets and capitalism, favoring supply side economics, but it has several disagreements with classical liberalism and fiscal conservatism: Irving Kristol states that neocons are more relaxed about budget deficits and tend to reject the Hayekian notion that the growth of government influence on society and public welfare is "the road to serfdom". Indeed, to safeguard democracy, government intervention and budget deficits may sometimes be necessary, Kristol argues.
One is an avowed socialist, the other is the founder of the conservative Weekly Standard magazine. Both of them say neocons are conservatives who endorse government intervention in the economy.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:53 PM
 
5,720 posts, read 5,981,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009 View Post
Libertarianism seems to be really popular these days. My understanding was that it's essentially Social Liberalism + Economic Conservatism. (Economic Conservatism = pro-free market economics.)

However, we almost never see the reverse -- Social Conservatism + Economic Liberalism. Essentially, someone who could be described as pro-life and pro-family values, but prefers the school of Keynesian economics over free market economics. A social conservative who basically *supports* Social Security (in its current form) enthusiastically, and is wholeheartedly pro-Medicare (and not the Ryan form of it, either). A social conservative who opposes outsourcing and offshoring of jobs.

Where are all these kinds of ppl? I haven't met anyone like that...and it honestly surprises me. We have Liberals (liberal socially and economically), Conservatives (socially and fiscally conservative), and Libertarians (fiscally conversative, socially liberal). So why not socially conversative + economically liberal?

Why not think "outside the box"?
A lot of Hispanic voters and black voters fall into this category, as well as elderly immigrants who came to Northeast cities in the mid-century. I don't think it's as much of a thing as Social Liberal + Economic Libertarian, but it is definitely a thing.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:56 PM
 
5,720 posts, read 5,981,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightflight View Post
You'll find it in may black churches.
That was my thought as well. A lot of the reason Prop 8 is thought to have passed in California in 2008 was increased turnout among traditional black Democrats for Obama.
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Old 03-11-2013, 04:57 PM
Status: "Biden won." (set 29 days ago)
 
13,683 posts, read 8,832,389 times
Reputation: 6555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009 View Post
Libertarianism seems to be really popular these days. My understanding was that it's essentially Social Liberalism + Economic Conservatism. (Economic Conservatism = pro-free market economics.)

However, we almost never see the reverse -- Social Conservatism + Economic Liberalism. Essentially, someone who could be described as pro-life and pro-family values, but prefers the school of Keynesian economics over free market economics. A social conservative who basically *supports* Social Security (in its current form) enthusiastically, and is wholeheartedly pro-Medicare (and not the Ryan form of it, either). A social conservative who opposes outsourcing and offshoring of jobs.

Where are all these kinds of ppl? I haven't met anyone like that...and it honestly surprises me. We have Liberals (liberal socially and economically), Conservatives (socially and fiscally conservative), and Libertarians (fiscally conversative, socially liberal). So why not socially conversative + economically liberal?

Why not think "outside the box"?
Most people who call themselves conservatives support Medicare and social security. Irony.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:00 PM
 
5,720 posts, read 5,981,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
I don't think the social conservative/econ liberal is at all uncommon. W Bush fit solidly in this category. Mike Huckabee was the epitome of this.
To me Bush did not fit the category though. Aside from establishing Medicard Part D, his deficit spending was not designed in the "social democracy" model that I associate with liberal politics. His main wealth redistribution policy, the tax cut, was geared more toward the wealthy. To me it is part of the frustrating shift in politics since Obama's election that we oversimplify deficit spending to be liberal and austerity to be conservative. Ceauscescu, after all, practiced the most severe austerity ever lol.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:05 PM
 
5,448 posts, read 7,207,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juppiter View Post
To me Bush did not fit the category though. Aside from establishing Medicard Part D, his deficit spending was not designed in the "social democracy" model that I associate with liberal politics. His main wealth redistribution policy, the tax cut, was geared more toward the wealthy. To me it is part of the frustrating shift in politics since Obama's election that we oversimplify deficit spending to be liberal and austerity to be conservative. Ceauscescu, after all, practiced the most severe austerity ever lol.
Very well-spoken; I agree 100%, with the portion bolded above...GWB was not exactly an FDR for example, who actually helped the middle class and the poor (the little guy) to be able to succeed financially, and to improve their quality of life...
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:06 PM
 
48,507 posts, read 90,853,064 times
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What each party stands for is determined by its platform which the delegates wrtie.Certainyl we see each party has not stay dormate. Bll Cl;into for example was considered right of center in Democratic aporty and is famous for his "you can not governa form the left in a right of center coutnry" when i office.In 2008 the shift i power from right od center Democrats to left of center in who madeup the demcoratic commiteee occured.The same has haepopened in rrepublcian aprty at othet iems ans reagan ceertain meant the first conservatives on that committee.Few voters are reaally registered voting Democrats or republicans in the alocal parties that elect representaives to vote on committee members.
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Old 03-11-2013, 05:29 PM
 
7,300 posts, read 6,209,992 times
Reputation: 2897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight2009 View Post
Libertarianism seems to be really popular these days. My understanding was that it's essentially Social Liberalism + Economic Conservatism. (Economic Conservatism = pro-free market economics.)

However, we almost never see the reverse -- Social Conservatism + Economic Liberalism. Essentially, someone who could be described as pro-life and pro-family values, but prefers the school of Keynesian economics over free market economics. A social conservative who basically *supports* Social Security (in its current form) enthusiastically, and is wholeheartedly pro-Medicare (and not the Ryan form of it, either). A social conservative who opposes outsourcing and offshoring of jobs.

Where are all these kinds of ppl? I haven't met anyone like that...and it honestly surprises me. We have Liberals (liberal socially and economically), Conservatives (socially and fiscally conservative), and Libertarians (fiscally conversative, socially liberal). So why not socially conversative + economically liberal?

Why not think "outside the box"?
Me. I'm a tiny bit more conservative socially, and a great deal more fiscally liberal.
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Old 03-11-2013, 06:38 PM
 
1,446 posts, read 2,021,935 times
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The case for Bush as "socially conservative, fiscally liberal" is interesting. On one hand, I'm unwilling to get behind a politician who will privatize Social Security and turn it into another income stream for Wall Street (with an implicit government backstop....they would never let a market crash wipe out people's retirement money from something supposed to be "safe" like SS).

When I say "economically liberal" I mean willing to speak out strongly in favor of SS and Medicare. Not to mention jobs, offshoring, unions, etc.

However that may be asking too much of any American potus in this neoliberal free market besotted era. They have to talk the market talk, and it's probably better to watch what they actually DO.

I think that "socially conservative economically populist" is the actual orientation of most of the populous, if you went by what they actually want and not what they say to pollsters.

It's also the exact opposite of the ideology of the ruling elites of this country---Obama, Romney, Mike Bloomberg. All cosmopolitan, highly educated & sophisticated, don't really care about gay marriage or abortion or guns or prayer in schools or the disintegrating family. All deficit obsessed free trade free marketeers, who think that SS and Medicare have to be destroyed to save them.
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