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Old 06-29-2011, 05:47 PM
 
357 posts, read 42,192 times
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Default Historically, liberalism is an anti-statist philosophy.

However, times have changed. Instead of being against the bureaucrats, the bankers, the corporatists, and the MIC, modern day progressive liberals have enriched and empowered these groups.

"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." --Big Brother.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:50 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,521 posts, read 4,176,818 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Drink Water View Post
However, times have changed. Instead of being against the bureaucrats, the bankers, the corporatists, and the MIC, modern day progressive liberals have enriched and empowered these groups.

"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." --Big Brother.
That sad part is very few of them understand how they are actually propping up the elite they despise.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:55 PM
 
3,084 posts, read 1,626,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Drink Water View Post
However, times have changed. Instead of being against the bureaucrats, the bankers, the corporatists, and the MIC, modern day progressive liberals have enriched and empowered these groups.

"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength." --Big Brother.
Historically, Libertarianism is an anti-statist philosophy. Liberalism, as is consistently illustrated by it's current proponents, advocates more government control over everything.

Personally, I'd rather deal with the profit driven corporations than the power driven government that has usurped the rule of law in order to be able to send armed minions to compel my compliance with their decrees.

There is nothing truly liberal about liberalism unless it's definition is bastardized to include a liberal expansion of government power and control to the detriment of the freedoms of individuals.

Government should be acting in a manner to ensure and increase personal liberty rather than enhance it's own power. Government and it's employees were intended to work for us rather than strive for our subjugation.
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Old 06-29-2011, 06:08 PM
 
357 posts, read 42,192 times
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Originally Posted by outbacknv View Post
Personally, I'd rather deal with the profit driven corporations than the power driven government that has usurped the rule of law in order to be able to send armed minions to compel my compliance with their decrees.
Corporatism and statism are directly tied to one another. Modern day corporate power is derived from the state.

You just created a false dichotomy.
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Old 06-29-2011, 06:17 PM
 
3,084 posts, read 1,626,246 times
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Originally Posted by I Drink Water View Post
Corporatism and statism are directly tied to one another. Modern day corporate power is derived from the state.

You just created a false dichotomy.
I disagree. Government and it's power and profit driven members created the dichotomy.

Government was intended to protect the rights and freedoms of the states and their individual citizens. That intent was long ago abandoned and replaced by an unending quest for more power and profit.

Corporations may well have provided a great deal of the profit that resulted in runaway government but the true offender is and has been the corrupt politicians. Had they adhered to their oaths of office self-promoting corporatism would have been nipped in the bud. Neither prominent party gets a free pass in shameful usurpation of power.
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Old 06-29-2011, 06:51 PM
 
357 posts, read 42,192 times
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Originally Posted by outbacknv View Post
I disagree. Government and it's power and profit driven members created the dichotomy.

Government was intended to protect the rights and freedoms of the states and their individual citizens. That intent was long ago abandoned and replaced by an unending quest for more power and profit.

Corporations may well have provided a great deal of the profit that resulted in runaway government but the true offender is and has been the corrupt politicians. Had they adhered to their oaths of office self-promoting corporatism would have been nipped in the bud. Neither prominent party gets a free pass in shameful usurpation of power.
Corporations derive their power from the state. From Roderick Long.

Corporations tend to fear competition, because competition exerts downward pressure on prices and upward pressure on salaries; moreover, success on the market comes with no guarantee of permanency, depending as it does on outdoing other firms at correctly figuring out how best to satisfy forever-changing consumer preferences, and that kind of vulnerability to loss is no picnic. It is no surprise, then, that throughout U.S. history corporations have been overwhelmingly hostile to the free market. Indeed, most of the existing regulatory apparatusóincluding those regulations widely misperceived as restraints on corporate powerówere vigorously supported, lobbied for, and in some cases even drafted by the corporate elite.[1]
Corporations versus the Market; or, Whip Conflation Now | Roderick Long | Cato Unbound

I don't understand your disagreement.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:00 PM
 
3,084 posts, read 1,626,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Drink Water View Post
Corporations derive their power from the state. From Roderick Long.

Corporations tend to fear competition, because competition exerts downward pressure on prices and upward pressure on salaries; moreover, success on the market comes with no guarantee of permanency, depending as it does on outdoing other firms at correctly figuring out how best to satisfy forever-changing consumer preferences, and that kind of vulnerability to loss is no picnic. It is no surprise, then, that throughout U.S. history corporations have been overwhelmingly hostile to the free market. Indeed, most of the existing regulatory apparatusóincluding those regulations widely misperceived as restraints on corporate powerówere vigorously supported, lobbied for, and in some cases even drafted by the corporate elite.[1]
Corporations versus the Market; or, Whip Conflation Now | Roderick Long | Cato Unbound

I don't understand your disagreement.
Perhaps I stated it poorly.

In a nutshell I'm saying without corrupt government, corporatism would have little chance for unrestrained advancement. Government must run interference for unprincipled corporate interests.

Without government influence (and it's ability to compel compliance) free market and consumer restraint would have the ability to reign in destructive and profit driven corporate efforts.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:22 PM
 
Location: South Jordan, Utah
6,521 posts, read 4,176,818 times
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Originally Posted by outbacknv View Post
Perhaps I stated it poorly.

In a nutshell I'm saying without corrupt government, corporatism would have little chance for unrestrained advancement. Government must run interference for unprincipled corporate interests.

Without government influence (and it's ability to compel compliance) free market and consumer restraint would have the ability to reign in destructive and profit driven corporate efforts.
As long as corporations and their leaders have liability. Government protection of their profits by limiting their risk and liability is the opposite of liberty.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:27 PM
 
357 posts, read 42,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outbacknv View Post
Without government influence (and it's ability to compel compliance) free market and consumer restraint would have the ability to reign in destructive and profit driven corporate efforts.
You are kidding me. The state is not the cohesive glue that holds together our current paradigm.
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