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Old 07-04-2011, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Texas
27,335 posts, read 21,023,339 times
Reputation: 31950
I'm conservative and I don't think this country is perfect.
But I also don't think that the answer is to be more like Europe (which I find to be a detestable place to try to do anything but be mediocre).

Why are my only choices love the way things are now or embrace a european way of doing things?
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Old 07-04-2011, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Texas
27,335 posts, read 21,023,339 times
Reputation: 31950
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
...as opposed to the fiscal failure in the USA? Sure Europe has problems, there is a world wide economic crisis after all. The USA is suffering as much as anywhere else...probably more so..... and without the benefits found in Europe.
It's suffering largely in part because we can't support the giant entitlement classes we've bred up to be just like the aforementioned countries.

Their failure is our failure in very much the same way. We probably would have been better off if we had never strived to do that when we were in times of excess...because now that we are in times of economy, we've screwed ourselves and the welfare babies are still crying for the government teat.

Europeans' 'benefits' are on the chopping block and we're stuck with a dumb-ass administration who can't wrap their heads around that and want to enact MORE of them here...duh.
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Old 07-04-2011, 02:42 PM
 
545 posts, read 136,845 times
Reputation: 263
Conservatives don't think anyone who doesn't think America is perfect that they are anti-American...in-fact I am sure conservatives themselves don't believe America is perfect so why would they think that to begin with?

but most criticism from left about the U.S. and well, only the U.S., when was the last time you say a liberal criticize any place that wasn't the U.S.?..

I would then like to ask the question as to why liberals think everywhere (especially Europe) else but America is perfect?...really, on this thread alone we already have someone who couldn't wait to tell us how much better their homeland is compared to the U.S., in-fact they took time out of their day to tell us backwards Americans how awesome their country is...

but the criticism from the left is really infantile and whiny...."America sucks becuase the wealth gap"....really...someone started an entire thread stating he left American because of "the wealth gap and the rich aren't paying their fair share, and there isn't enough free/social programs" blah, blah, blah....really, that was reason enough to leave this country....

I rarely here any intelligent reasonable criticism from the left like "why do we have so many military bases around the world?...we don't have the money for that"....instead its "the wealth gap between the rich and the poor is oppressive and only happens because America is evil and we need to be more like Europe"...which what it really comes down to...its kinda hard to believe you love this country and you don't hate it when you keep trying to remake it into some European nation you never even been to...

when real human rights are being destroyed (Muslim ruled nations, north Korea, parts of Africa, Parts of Asia) I mean people are really being killed and tortured by their leaders, that goes mostly ignored...the real humans right travesty is that gays can't get married....that's the real human rights violation...don't believe me?...compare Gay marriage threads that can stretch for over 50 pages to those like the Fogel family massacre that can't get past 10 pages...

so really, when liberals can get worked up and declare America a violator of civil rights because they can't get as much "social welfare" as they want but gloss over actual human rights violation such as being stoned, beheaded, or imprisoned for only being gay ( Muslim ruled nations ) its hard to take them seriously.
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Old 07-04-2011, 02:47 PM
 
2,115 posts, read 854,569 times
Reputation: 980
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricGold View Post
Conservatives don't think anyone who doesn't think America is perfect that they are anti-American...in-fact I am sure conservatives themselves don't believe America is perfect so why would they think that to begin with?

but most criticism from left about the U.S. and well, only the U.S., when was the last time you say a liberal criticize any place that wasn't the U.S.?..

I would then like to ask the question as to why liberals think everywhere (especially Europe) else but America is perfect?...really, on this thread alone we already have someone who couldn't wait to tell us how much better their homeland is compared to the U.S., in-fact they took time out of their day to tell us backwards Americans how awesome their country is...

but the criticism from the left is really infantile and whiny...."America sucks becuase the wealth gap"....really...someone started an entire thread stating he left American because of "the wealth gap and the rich aren't paying their fair share, and there isn't enough free/social programs" blah, blah, blah....really that was reason enough to leave this country....

I rarely here any intelligent reasonable criticism from the left like "why do we have so many military bases around the world?...we don't have the money for that"....instead its "the wealth gap between the rich and the poor is oppressive and only happens because America is evil and we need to be more like Europe"...which what it really comes down to...its kinda hard to believe you love this country and you don't hate it when you keep trying to remake it into some European nation you never even been to yourself...

when real human rights are being destroyed (Muslim ruled nations, north Korea, parts of Africa, Parts of Asia) I mean people are really being killed and tortured by their leaders, that goes mostly ignored...the real humans right travesty is that gays can't get married....that's the real human rights violation...don't believe me?...compare Gay marriage threads that can stretch for over 50 pages to those like the Fogel family massacre that can't get past 10 pages...

so really, when liberals can get worked up and declare America a violator of civil rights because they can't get as much "social welfare" as they wont but gloss over actual human rights violation such as being stoned, beheaded, or imprisoned for only being gay ( Muslim ruled nations ) its hard to take them seriously.
Sorry you've never had a conversation with any intelligent leftists, but this post contains even more straw men than the OP. I'm not a liberal, but I have lots of criticisms for lots of other places than America. I think the wealth gap between the rich and the poor in America is oppressive and I have more complex reasoning behind my opinion than "America is evil". Finally, I don't think " liberals think everywhere (especially Europe) else but America is perfect?" is even close to true, and as much disdain as I have for milquetoast liberals, I doubt any of the posters here who profess to hold such a position would back this statement.
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Old 07-04-2011, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Texas
27,335 posts, read 21,023,339 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunks_galore View Post
Sorry you've never had a conversation with any intelligent leftists, but this post contains even more straw men than the OP. I'm not a liberal, but I have lots of criticisms for lots of other places than America. I think the wealth gap between the rich and the poor in America is oppressive and I have more complex reasoning behind my opinion than "America is evil". Finally, I don't think " liberals think everywhere (especially Europe) else but America is perfect?" is even close to true, and as much disdain as I have for milquetoast liberals, I doubt any of the posters here who profess to hold such a position would back this statement.
The difficulty in building any real wealth at all in almost any other country in the world is what is TRULY oppressive.

Here, 80% of all millionaires come from the middle class.

We have opportunity here. It's not MY fault that other people don't choose to take advantage of that (and instead choose to whine about how someone else has all the crap that they want).
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Old 07-04-2011, 02:53 PM
 
2,115 posts, read 854,569 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4 View Post
The difficulty in building any real wealth at all in almost any other country in the world is what is TRULY oppressive.

Here, 80% of all millionaires come from the middle class.

We have opportunity here. It's not MY fault that other people don't choose to take advantage of that (and instead choose to whine about how someone else has all the crap that they want).
America has poorer social mobility than most of our first world counterparts, so the majority of your argument is invalid, if not outright absurd.

edit: Additionally, social mobility is decreasing as the total share of wealth held by the top 1% is increasing, which flies in the face of most of the standard remarks regarding opportunity in America. This is a derail, but this thread is pretty worthless regardless, so I'd be interested to hear your response.
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:00 PM
 
3,084 posts, read 1,537,622 times
Reputation: 2321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Oh please!!! We are discussing the present day EU, not Carlism from 1839.

Do you then think that the Spanish government should not deal with Basque terrorist groups like ETA?

...and FYI. In 1978, autonomy was restored to the Basques, who achieved a degree of self-government without precedent in modern Basque history. Today, Basques have their own police body and manage their own public finances with virtually no intervention from the central government of Spain.
Present day or not there is still an active Basque separatist movement. The existence of that movement would imply that it's members are less than impressed with the benevolence of the Spanish government.

Members of that movement are still routinely arrested and imprisoned. They view themselves as freedom fighters. Your government views them as terrorists. Realistically speaking the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

You're certainly well within your rights to dispute the accuracy of my observations. After all, I'm just an outsider interjecting my opinion on Spanish issues. I'd argue the same objections should apply to a European asserting their views on the superiority of their system to ours.
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:22 PM
 
Location: PA
17,677 posts, read 7,544,511 times
Reputation: 7347
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal View Post
Obviously the OP is trolling and knows nothing at all about Conservatives. This country is in the toilet and Conservatives understand that the Progressives have driven it there with fiscal irresponsibility, along with the Clinton/Bush/Obama administrations' warmongering and re-distributive wealth policy of nation building policies.
Problem is liberals get their source of information about conservatives from liberal pundits. It's like trying to learn about Christianity or Islam from a life-long atheist.
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:26 PM
 
Location: PA
17,677 posts, read 7,544,511 times
Reputation: 7347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
...as opposed to the fiscal failure in the USA? Sure Europe has problems, there is a world wide economic crisis after all. The USA is suffering as much as anywhere else...probably more so..... and without the benefits found in Europe.
US fiscal failure? Spain's in the same boat amigo. Looks like your cajas are going to be bailed out soon
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Old 07-04-2011, 03:35 PM
 
3,428 posts, read 1,389,700 times
Reputation: 2906
There's a huge difference between calling America 'imperfect' and calling America the root of all evil, imperialistic, racist while siding with countries like Iran and China.
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