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Old 07-10-2011, 09:43 PM
 
3,513 posts, read 3,233,083 times
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i found it refreshing at my job that a white female i worked with asked me what type of music i like, she noticed i was listening to my zune, instead of assuming what i like based on what i look like.

i also find it funny how a decent amount of time im hanging with a white guy he'll say what do you think about lil waynes new album, or young jeezy, automatically assuming i listen to rap because im non-white.

i think they take it easy on me since im not really black, im biracial(half white/half black) light brown skin, but ive noticed it a decent amount from whites.

white people are also very intrigued with my racial makeup once i start talking with them. people get confused when they cant box people up and put them in special categories.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:48 PM
 
Location: In my view finder.....
8,521 posts, read 13,944,439 times
Reputation: 8079
Quote:
Originally Posted by SamBarrow View Post
I find it funny that those of you complaining about stereotypes build these huge strawmen trying to paint the majority of white people as racist, and implying that we think the vast majority of black people are ghetto idiots.

I, and most white people know damn well that most black people are just regular decent people. And you all know damn well that most white people aren't racist.

The topic of this thread, to get back to it, is focusing on the mentality prevalent in the lower classes that talking properly etc. is somehow white. You can say white people do it too, but these kids that actually live in the hood and "act white" are often abused for it, in a much worse way. I have seen it more times than I can count. I have even seen it in the lower middle class.
Yeah man, I agree with you there.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:49 PM
 
6,156 posts, read 4,136,868 times
Reputation: 1513
Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
Look at most media portrayals. If that were the case, why are most Blacks usually portrayed as thugs?
Because of racist white people? You tell me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
If that were the case, why inequality in sentencing?
Sentencing for the exact same crimes with the exact same criminal records and everything? If so, racism. I won't deny that it exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
I remember studying different attitudes of teachers concerning different groups of students. Teachers punished girls less than boys and Whites less than Blacks...for the same infractions. Black students got harsher punishments than their White counterparts...for the same infractions.

These stereotypes are prevalent in ALL classes.
I know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
AGAIN SAM...I WENT TO A LOWER CLASS SCHOOL!!!! I grew up in Moreno Valley (Sunnymead Ranch, a place that has A LOT of upper middle class Black people), but I went to school in San Bernardino (it's ranked as one of the most dangerous cities in the US).
In middle school I got screwed with for "acting white." And as you know, I'm white. And I told you about my fiance. She had it worse than I did. Of course my personal experiences aren't everything though. But neither are yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
Let me iterate the majority of Blacks go to college straight from high school, thus are the majority of Black high school students "acting White"?
I never said that "acting white" was even a valid label. I'm the one disputing that label if you'll read my last post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
It's not a strawman. We pointed out how people typically don't do this in the Black community. We never said it doesn't happen at all. We then offered explanations as to why it may occur.
I wasn't referring to your posts actually. One post for example was the one about the commercial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
Again it goes back to social psychology and how we define groups. The outgroup majority also influences the ingroup definition. For every group. It just so happens that Blacks are usually lumped together as 1 large group.
Not to justify it, but there are reasons. First of all, ignorant white people who don't know black people obviously won't know the difference since they're such a small minority. Second of all, the black underclass is a larger percentage of the black population so stereotypes are more easily formed.

If every single major city had huge and dangerous white ghettos, don't tell me that the same thing wouldn't happen to white people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calibro1 View Post
Whites escape this, but we see the same thing with Southern Whites. Media portrayals of Southern Whites usually lead to SOME Southern Whites acting more aligned with the stereotype than not. It's a universal concept.
Of course.
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:25 PM
 
771 posts, read 533,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indentured Servant View Post
When I was a teenager I had friends who did things that I did not do, like drugs and alcohol. They would smoke their weed and drink their 40’s on the steps and I would be right there on the steps with them. One time one of the crew said that they don’t even know why I hang with the crew because I don’t smoke and drink. I asked him was the only reason he hung with the crew was to smoke and drink, since he never went in on any off the cost. That was the last time he mentioned it.

The thing is that one has to be true to themselves. You have to be strong enough to be who you are. The thing about inner-city black folks is that you have to be STRONG mentally. What people like this young lady does not see is that she was not being REJECTED, she was simply being TESTED. If a black person told her she don’t act black, she simply needed to have a comeback. Ultimately her acceptance would be based upon whether she could accept and respect the group and the fact that she would be teased for playing the violin and other stuff, but just because you are teased does not mean that you are not accepted. Being able to accept being teased is basic initiation. It will either make you or break you and it looks like it broke her and now she has taken it personal and is on a vendetta. I have no doubt that this young lady could be accepted into any “ghetto” group, being herself, if she could simply accept being teased, as likely everyone in the group is teased about something. It’s just like siblings, often times we tease the ones we love about their differences benign differences.

I think that this acting black and acting white thing is blown way, way out of proportion. I just happen to have heard the author of the book she displayed being interviewed on Satellite radio. I must say that he does “SOUND WHITE”. Here is the thing, though. He associates his being labeled as such to be born from using properly constructed English and sounding intelligent, like most people who are labeled as acting white do. This is the BIG fallacy about being labeled as acting white. People link the labeling to displaying intelligence…..instead of displaying cultural traits. The vast majority of time black people get labeled as acting white is because culturally that is the way they come across. In the authors case, he could have used incorrect grammar until the cows came home…..and he would still sound white. He had a white accent. In other words, black people often pronounce or enunciate words differently, but because black people have historically been believed to be intellectually inferior, when we do things differently it is associated with the absence of intelligence. People from Boston can have their own “sound” and not pronounce the “R” without it being associated with the lack of intelligence. Yet, when blacks pronounce “ask” as “axe”…….its associated with poor schooling and intelligence and not simply black vernacular.

I think that this has blown into a big campaign of misinformation. While there may be some instances where black people associate acting intelligent with “acting white”, it’s rare. In the vast majority of cases there is no link between the display of intelligence and the label. Furthermore, equating acting intelligent with acting white creates the equally erroneous corollary of acting ignorant to be “acting black”. Again, when you look at these labels what race wins? Whites get associated with intelligence and blacks get associated with ignorance. What’s new? That has been the propaganda for the last 500 years. It’s flattering to whites to be having their behavior associated with higher intelligence so the media and many whites love such stories that conflate intelligence with whites and ignorance with blacks. Black folks jumping on the bandwagon perpetuating this MYTH does more harm than good.

African Proverb:

Until the lion tells his story, the tale of the hunt will always glorify the hunter.

Black folks need to stop repeating the tales of the hunter.
Your entire post reveals your OWN inferiority complex. You are the person you resent so much. Read it again.

Actually, you also aren't paying attention. The white critics on this thread, myself included, are basically saying that blacks that engage in this behavior CAN DO BETTER THAN THEY CURRENTLY ARE. In that, we're saying they are NOT stupid. They are no less or no more intelligent than whites. However, it is their CHOICES that lead to much of the criminal ghetto thug culture in black America.

Your post seems to have missed that.
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Old 07-10-2011, 10:30 PM
 
771 posts, read 533,278 times
Reputation: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by tropolis View Post
i found it refreshing at my job that a white female i worked with asked me what type of music i like, she noticed i was listening to my zune, instead of assuming what i like based on what i look like.

i also find it funny how a decent amount of time im hanging with a white guy he'll say what do you think about lil waynes new album, or young jeezy, automatically assuming i listen to rap because im non-white.

i think they take it easy on me since im not really black, im biracial(half white/half black) light brown skin, but ive noticed it a decent amount from whites.

white people are also very intrigued with my racial makeup once i start talking with them. people get confused when they cant box people up and put them in special categories.
and I have had experiences with blacks who ask me about the Dave Matthews Band, or Phish or that other neo-hippie crap. Most insulting is when I've heard that stereotpyical, whiny white guy voice that racist blacks use.

Yeah, I feel your frustration of being stereotyped for the color of your skin.
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:37 PM
 
771 posts, read 533,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunkisses87 View Post
-My argument? She asked me a question and I posed my opinion. I can't speak for why other black people act the way they do, nor can I speak for the middle class or lower class black folk. I do know that in the upper middle and upper class(which is the sort of community I GREW up in) this sort of behavior--the stereotypical "acting black"--was not very common. Which is why I believe it is largely a class issue. I never said it wasn't a racial issue--but that I believe it's MORE of a class issue than a "racial" one. Not all black people act the same. So saying it is largely a "racial" issue I disagreed with. I believe it's a mixture of class and race. That is my belief. Take it as you will.
BTW, If you have evidence that demonstrates that it's a racial issue not a combination of "class" and "race" then feel free to post it. Otherwise I'll continue with my own beliefs.

-Again please post some evidence that middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug. Otherwise your just spewing your own personal opinion. You don't know all middle class blacks--you aren't even black. How can you be the "speaker" of this entire class of people? How can you say how they feel? Such a large generalization to make as an argument, without backup? I'm hoping that like me, you are JUST posting your opinion, and that you REALLY aren't trying to "argue" or "assert" that this is true. Because if it is, again I'd like to see some credible research that demonstrates this.

-Meh I think your taking this too seriously. I gave an opinion, a belief, coming from a person that has black family members, black friends, that are across all segments of "classes" and I spoke on that. But as I told her I cannot speak for all African Americans and I refuse to take the "speaker" position. If I've hid anything(not sure why you think I'm "hiding" things) please speak to the "details" that I've hid--and please do so with credible evidence. Otherwise I'll let you keep your opinion and I'll keep mine.

Honestly why are you so sensitive about this issue? The whole idea that you believe that I'm in some crazy black-liberal conspiracy to "cover" up what goes on in the middle class black community is very amusing to me.
No one asked you to speak for others. Can you show me where I did?

Also, can you show me where I said it wasn't ALSO a class issue? I am saying race is a predominant factor. The economic argument is slayed when the presence of suburban middle class blacks engaging in, or, more honestly, TRYING to engage in similar behavior. If you aren't aware of that, you are simply being dishonest. its also anecdotal, and impossible to give stats on, but I think you knew that. However, do some google searches. How about this thread, from worldstarhiphop.com (a VERY thug oriented site):

How Do Y'all Feel About Middle Class Blacks Trying Act Hard? (http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?8625-How-Do-Y-all-Feel-About-Middle-Class-Blacks-Trying-Act-Hard/page9 - broken link)

Oh yeah, conspiracy? What? I never even mentioned that. Are you trying to put words in my mouth to avoid a real debate?
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:00 AM
 
1,202 posts, read 1,577,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtruth View Post
No one asked you to speak for others. Can you show me where I did?

Also, can you show me where I said it wasn't ALSO a class issue? I am saying race is a predominant factor. The economic argument is slayed when the presence of suburban middle class blacks engaging in, or, more honestly, TRYING to engage in similar behavior. If you aren't aware of that, you are simply being dishonest. its also anecdotal, and impossible to give stats on, but I think you knew that. However, do some google searches. How about this thread, from worldstarhiphop.com (a VERY thug oriented site):

How Do Y'all Feel About Middle Class Blacks Trying Act Hard? (http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?8625-How-Do-Y-all-Feel-About-Middle-Class-Blacks-Trying-Act-Hard/page9 - broken link)

Oh yeah, conspiracy? What? I never even mentioned that. Are you trying to put words in my mouth to avoid a real debate?
-I'm being dishonest? As I said before I grew up in an upper middle class community and my experience with middle class blacks acting "hard" is that it just wasn't very common. Yes I realize that it exists. And I've seen it. But my point is that even if it does, it surely isn't indicative of all middle class blacks. Unless you have evidence suggesting that most middle class blacks act this way then I don't understand how you can say that middle class blacks feel that to be black means to act like a thug?

-Furthermore, from my observations even when I did witness middle class or upper class blacks acting "black" I also witnessed other races doing the same thing. I always felt that it was a part of the hip-hop culture which is a culture that is overly represented in the lower class black communities.

-Many of the same behaviors that exist in lower class black communities, I notice exist in lower class white communities, latino communities and so on. So it has always been my belief that "hip-hop" culture(which consists of crime, amongst other things) it is largely a "culture" of lower class communities and that the behaviors and attitudes within these communities are very similar. I don't believe that hip-hop culture is what being black is about, and the blacks I've associated with feel similar.

-It's 2011 and hiphop is a very popular brand of music, and the culture is often portrayed through the music. Thus hip-hop culture has transcended into middle and upper class, and across all racial groups; for every middle class black boy that I've observed with baggy pants and a lil wayne cd, I've seen a white boy with the same, or an asian kid with the same.

-I never felt(and still don't feel) that the hip-hop culture is "black" culture. Nor do I believe that it represents the majority of black americans. I also don't believe that most middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug.
You believe differently--fine.
And World Hip Hop forum, are you kidding me? That is your evidence?
Okay.
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Old 07-11-2011, 12:06 AM
 
1,202 posts, read 1,577,880 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speakingtruth View Post
No one asked you to speak for others. Can you show me where I did?

Also, can you show me where I said it wasn't ALSO a class issue? I am saying race is a predominant factor. The economic argument is slayed when the presence of suburban middle class blacks engaging in, or, more honestly, TRYING to engage in similar behavior. If you aren't aware of that, you are simply being dishonest. its also anecdotal, and impossible to give stats on, but I think you knew that. However, do some google searches. How about this thread, from worldstarhiphop.com (a VERY thug oriented site):

How Do Y'all Feel About Middle Class Blacks Trying Act Hard? (http://community.allhiphop.com/showthread.php?8625-How-Do-Y-all-Feel-About-Middle-Class-Blacks-Trying-Act-Hard/page9 - broken link)

Oh yeah, conspiracy? What? I never even mentioned that. Are you trying to put words in my mouth to avoid a real debate?
-I'm being dishonest? As I said before I grew up in an upper middle class community and my experience with middle class blacks acting "hard" is that it just wasn't very common. Yes I realize that it exists. And I've seen it. But my point is that even if it does, it surely isn't indicative of all middle class blacks. Unless you have evidence suggesting that most middle class blacks act this way then I don't understand how you can say that middle class blacks feel that to be black means to act like a thug?

-Furthermore, from my observations the phrase acting "black" usually is associated with blacks within the hip-hop culture. A culture which consists of crime, poverty, welfare, amongst other things. A culture that is overly represented in the lower class black communities.

-Many of the same behaviors(crime, welfare, slang, illiteracy, out of wedlock births) that exist in lower class black communities, I notice exist in lower class white communities, latino communities and so on. So it has always been my belief that "hip-hop" culture is NOT representative of the black middle class. Rather it represents the lower class and the "ills" associated within that class.

-It's 2011 and hiphop is a very popular brand of music, and the culture is often portrayed through the music. Thus you'll see many middle class and upper class groups, and many different racial groups, listening to this music and perhaps emulating the hip-hop culture. For every middle class black boy that I've observed with baggy pants and a lil wayne cd, I've seen a white boy with the same, or an asian kid with the same. Again to me this is not indicative of the middle class, but merely a representation of the media and it's impact on our youth.

-I never felt(and still don't feel) that the hip-hop culture is "black" culture. Nor do I believe that it represents the majority of black americans. I also don't believe that most middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug.
You believe differently--fine.
And World Hip Hop forum, are you kidding me? That is your evidence?
Okay.
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Old 07-11-2011, 07:19 PM
 
771 posts, read 533,278 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunkisses87 View Post
-I'm being dishonest? As I said before I grew up in an upper middle class community and my experience with middle class blacks acting "hard" is that it just wasn't very common. Yes I realize that it exists. And I've seen it. But my point is that even if it does, it surely isn't indicative of all middle class blacks. Unless you have evidence suggesting that most middle class blacks act this way then I don't understand how you can say that middle class blacks feel that to be black means to act like a thug?

-Furthermore, from my observations the phrase acting "black" usually is associated with blacks within the hip-hop culture. A culture which consists of crime, poverty, welfare, amongst other things. A culture that is overly represented in the lower class black communities.

-Many of the same behaviors(crime, welfare, slang, illiteracy, out of wedlock births) that exist in lower class black communities, I notice exist in lower class white communities, latino communities and so on. So it has always been my belief that "hip-hop" culture is NOT representative of the black middle class. Rather it represents the lower class and the "ills" associated within that class.

-It's 2011 and hiphop is a very popular brand of music, and the culture is often portrayed through the music. Thus you'll see many middle class and upper class groups, and many different racial groups, listening to this music and perhaps emulating the hip-hop culture. For every middle class black boy that I've observed with baggy pants and a lil wayne cd, I've seen a white boy with the same, or an asian kid with the same. Again to me this is not indicative of the middle class, but merely a representation of the media and it's impact on our youth.

-I never felt(and still don't feel) that the hip-hop culture is "black" culture. Nor do I believe that it represents the majority of black americans. I also don't believe that most middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug.
You believe differently--fine.
And World Hip Hop forum, are you kidding me? That is your evidence?
Okay.
You posted this twice. Posted it twice. That's like chopped and screwed, Houston style! yes, I know my Hip Hop. Not bad for a white guy that has listened to Hip Hop since like '84.


Will respond later to your HUGE straw man of an argument later. Right now I'm slammed.
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Old 07-11-2011, 08:42 PM
 
771 posts, read 533,278 times
Reputation: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunkisses87 View Post
-I'm being dishonest? As I said before I grew up in an upper middle class community and my experience with middle class blacks acting "hard" is that it just wasn't very common. Yes I realize that it exists. And I've seen it. But my point is that even if it does, it surely isn't indicative of all middle class blacks. Unless you have evidence suggesting that most middle class blacks act this way then I don't understand how you can say that middle class blacks feel that to be black means to act like a thug?

-Furthermore, from my observations even when I did witness middle class or upper class blacks acting "black" I also witnessed other races doing the same thing. I always felt that it was a part of the hip-hop culture which is a culture that is overly represented in the lower class black communities.

-Many of the same behaviors that exist in lower class black communities, I notice exist in lower class white communities, latino communities and so on. So it has always been my belief that "hip-hop" culture(which consists of crime, amongst other things) it is largely a "culture" of lower class communities and that the behaviors and attitudes within these communities are very similar. I don't believe that hip-hop culture is what being black is about, and the blacks I've associated with feel similar.

-It's 2011 and hiphop is a very popular brand of music, and the culture is often portrayed through the music. Thus hip-hop culture has transcended into middle and upper class, and across all racial groups; for every middle class black boy that I've observed with baggy pants and a lil wayne cd, I've seen a white boy with the same, or an asian kid with the same.

-I never felt(and still don't feel) that the hip-hop culture is "black" culture. Nor do I believe that it represents the majority of black americans. I also don't believe that most middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug.
You believe differently--fine.
And World Hip Hop forum, are you kidding me? That is your evidence?
Okay.
Let me start off by observing that you never answered my previous direct questions:
Originally Posted by speakingtruth
No one asked you to speak for others. Can you show me where I did?

Also, can you show me where I said it wasn't ALSO a class issue?


Odd, that. Its almost as if...you are trying to misrepresent one's argument!

Shall we?

YOU:
I'm being dishonest? As I said before I grew up in an upper middle class community and my experience with middle class blacks acting "hard" is that it just wasn't very common. Yes I realize that it exists. And I've seen it. But my point is that even if it does, it surely isn't indicative of all middle class blacks. Unless you have evidence suggesting that most middle class blacks act this way then I don't understand how you can say that middle class blacks feel that to be black means to act like a thug?
ME:
Yes, you were being dishonest. First, let me remind you of your own words:

"Again please post some evidence that middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug".

"Yes I realize that it exists. And I've seen it. But my point is that even if it does, it surely isn't indicative of all middle class blacks."

"from my observations even when I did witness middle class or upper class blacks acting "black"

Do you realize you just contradicted yourself? Also, I never said that ALL or MOST middle class blacks act like this. Scroll back up, and show me where I said that. I said that because it happens in the middle class and it reveals a CULTURAL ELEMENT. That statement rings true. I find it odd you started out denying it then openly admit in a follow up post.

YOU:
Furthermore, from my observations even when I did witness middle class or upper class blacks acting "black" I also witnessed other races doing the same thing. I always felt that it was a part of the hip-hop culture which is a culture that is overly represented in the lower class black communities.

ME:
yes, other races do it, which means nothing to our discussion. I never said, nor does it have to, exclusively black behavior. The point is that its the GLORIFICATION OF VIOLENCE, THUG LIFE, GHETTO CULTURE. Although this is a large element of Hip Hop, it overlaps, but it is not just hip hop. to whit, this behavior to disproportionate degrees, like we see today, PREDATES HIP HOP. Your point fails on logic alone. Oh yes, as I just alluded to, hip hop is only one element of this. You seem to not understand this.

YOU:
Many of the same behaviors that exist in lower class black communities, I notice exist in lower class white communities, latino communities and so on. So it has always been my belief that "hip-hop" culture(which consists of crime, amongst other things) it is largely a "culture" of lower class communities and that the behaviors and attitudes within these communities are very similar. I don't believe that hip-hop culture is what being black is about, and the blacks I've associated with feel similar.

ME:
Wow, it seems YOU need a lesson on hip hop, not me! Who ever said this was just about hip hop? This is a mental attitude which far exceeds hip hop in the black community. Can you show me where I said it was exclusively about hip hop, at all? You are trying to project this argument onto me, and I wont let you get away with it. Just like I asked you to back up your earlier statements and of course, you didn't.

YOU:
It's 2011 and hiphop is a very popular brand of music, and the culture is often portrayed through the music. Thus hip-hop culture has transcended into middle and upper class, and across all racial groups; for every middle class black boy that I've observed with baggy pants and a lil wayne cd, I've seen a white boy with the same, or an asian kid with the same.


ME:
See above and again to hammer home the point, hip hop is just one element of this. Oh yeah, you mentioned:
So it has always been my belief that "hip-hop" culture(which consists of crime, amongst other things) it is largely a "culture" of lower class communities and that the behaviors and attitudes within these communities are very similar.

Then you say:
Thus hip-hop culture has transcended into middle and upper class, and across all racial groups

So...it does consist of crime elements, and yes it has transcended into upper and middle class...but NO, dont EVER say it has to do with culture! Ma'am....YOU JUST ADMITTED IT DOES IN AT LEAST PART.

However, that was just a bonus for you. You see, I never said this was all about hip hop. You are insinuating I did. I said it was about culture within Black culture. AS I KNOW, THERE IS MORE TO BLACK CULTURE THAN JUST HIP HOP. So,you will have a hard time misrepresenting my positions when I make sure you can't produce qoutes from me saying otherwise.

YOU:
I never felt(and still don't feel) that the hip-hop culture is "black" culture. Nor do I believe that it represents the majority of black americans. I also don't believe that most middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug.
You believe differently--fine.
And World Hip Hop forum, are you kidding me? That is your evidence?
Okay.


ME:
You have this horrible habit of trying to put words in my mouth. Can you show me where I said that hip hop culture represents the majority of black americans? Because...i never said that. Its pure desperation to project an argument onto someone because you can't win a debate honestly. and I am that guy to expose you for it. Oh yes, again, I never said MOST middle class blacks feel that acting black means acting thug. But, you knew that, right? As for worldstarhiphop.com, it alone slays any argument about black crime being only about economics (an argument that is beyond worn out and discredited). The example is very valid.

Can you address my direct questions? Can you also answer as to why you project arguments onto me, ones I never said?
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