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You must remember the thread is about gay teen suicide....I agree many others commit suicide.
Blacks have FAR more sympathy in our society than gays and SOME blacks can be extremely anti-gay themselves. Now that gays are at the "bottom of the pecking order"....and not them. It is extremely difficult for black males to come out themselves.
I agree...I never killed myself...obviously....but I lived in despair like that kid for years before accepting I was gay. Now I've been with my mate 28 plus years and I'm trying to help gay youth...all youth avoid these additional pressures.
I'd say a majority of gay teens are indeed depressed....wouldn't you be with our society. Afraid your parents will disown you...kick you out etc.....I got disowned for a few years before my parents tolerated me again...it ain't pretty, nor easy....it takes balls.
Many teens do drugs and many gay teens more so, to help numb them to their daily pain....who do you turn to for support and advice. Especially when many schools and parents fight against gay support groups......talking about gays in class, etcetera.
However WHO are WE to judge these people. After all NONE of us has walked a DAY in their shoes.....we cannot be sure how we would react.
I was repeatedly hit with basketballs on my school bus daily because I was gay....5 guys...now I can fight/defend myself but against 5 guys all bigger than me I had no chance...the school and bus driver did nothing.
It interfered with my school work...I finally was purposely late for school every day so I caught the last bus in from the suburbs where the kids were more tolerant and the gay bus driver did not tolerate bullies.
I was strong and fought back in my own way.......like I do here but everyone is different and everyone has different levels of anguish tolerance.
What saddens me is the reaction of many supposed parents here making excuses for their actions and their kids behaviour. In my day parents taught respect and tolerance etc..... but some parents act like school bullies themselves. ..... gay bullying was not nearly as rampant and bad as it is these days.
Thanx for your input.
Blacks may have more sympathy now, but at one point in time they were very oppressed. Think back to the 1960's. They also were denied rights, told they were inferior, and treated poorly. They did not kill themselves. Now I'm not making "light" of homosexual suicide, but merely pointing out that society is not the "sole" cause of what these individuals are doing. Discrimination, oppression, institutionalized racism--these were all these things that blacks at one had faced and they did not kill themselves because of it. This is why it's hard for me to understand the correlation between homosexuals feeling discriminated against, and hated, and as a result doing something as drastic as suicide. It just isn't a normal reaction to adversity. No matter how it is framed, the fact is, millions of people have been oppressed in this country, or mistreated, they did not resort to suicide.
I've always felt that those who go through with suicide are typically mentally troubled. Therefore could it be concluded that the homosexuals that DID commit suicide(not the ones that thought about it) just simply were teenagers effected by severe depression and the the act of suicide was not necessarily the "fault" of society's discrimination but moreso the fact that they were troubled or weren't able to deal?
I think most of us can attest to the fact that homosexuals have it tough. But to fault society for suicide--I don't know if I can agree with that. Millions of teenagers, think about suicide, are depressed, are bullied--I don't think that this is just something homosexuals go through. Go to the mental health forum and you'll several people struggling with severe depression, that have suicidal thoughts. Could it not be that some people believe life is hard and therefore think about ending it? And that it is not exclusive to homosexuality? I get the feeling that some of you are saying that suicidal thoughts and suicide are something that most homosexuals go through at one point in time and that it always boils down to society oppressing them, however I'd have to say I've noticed A LOT of teenagers in general have suicidal thoughts and deal with depression, and that there have always been groups in history that have been oppressed--they did not kill themselves. Therefore doesn't it seem more plausible that the homosexuals killing themselves are mentally troubled and that it isn't completely society's mistreatment leading to such a drastic decision?
Of course I feel like this poor kid was driven over the edge by the intolerance of others and the mistreatment he received.
But if he killed himself, there was probably already some underlying issue there.
Many people have faced adversity and gotten through to the other side. For them, suicide is neither an answer nor ever even an option.
Regardless, it's always sad when someone feels this is his only recourse.
This is how I feel too. It is not a normal reaction to kill yourself because of mistreatment and intolerance. As I've said in another post, in history there were other minority groups that were oppressed--just as much--and if not more than homosexuals and they did not kill themselves based on it. People who commit suicide typically have deep underlining issues that I believe go beyond their sexuality, race, gender, and so on.
It's sad when it happens, and I don't believe it's selfish(I know several people do) BUT I just can't "buy" the assertion that society is causing homosexuals to kill themselves.
This is how I feel too. It is not a normal reaction to kill yourself because of mistreatment and intolerance. As I've said in another post, in history there were other minority groups that were oppressed--just as much--and if not more than homosexuals and they did not kill themselves based on it. People who commit suicide typically have deep underlining issues that I believe go beyond their sexuality, race, gender, and so on.
It's sad when it happens, and I don't believe it's selfish(I know several people do) BUT I just can't "buy" the assertion that society is causing homosexuals to kill themselves.
Society is NOT causing this. It's a cop out for the feeble minded.
Clearly you have no idea what you're talking about.
I was skinny, hell still am skinny. I was always popular in school. I was in varsity track and cross country. I was elected EVERY year since 4th grade to student council (even in college I was in student government).
However, I felt ashamed that I was bisexual because of what society was telling about such "behaviors".
I would think to myself why can't it just "go away".
I never was bullied. Not once. Always well liked. In fact, one guy back in high school was having a rough day. I asked what was up, he told me that I would not understand since my life was perfect. From the outside it was (great parents, awesome sports record, awesome school political record, amazing gpa).
Yet, I didn't want to tell people how I truly felt since I knew it was taboo.
Imagine being the guy in school that did tell. It would not be the same. I would not win elections since I was a "freak". The coaches would be wary of me undressing with other boys since I would be considered "deviant". I would not be a pillar of the community (I went to several conferences on how to improve schools in San Bernadino City...while in high school). Instead, I would face ostracism and contempt. This is the reality of what many homosexuals in high school go through.
It has nothing to do with fortitude. If you have people in GOVERNMENT telling you that you are a deviant, that's a heavy burden when you're a kid. Imagine if because you were scrawny you WERE bullied. Now imagine the government saying that scrawny people should not get married since they are deviants. Adults now are taking the side of those bullying you. You have nowhere to turn.
Its not at all the same. You not only are going up against one singular bully, but societal views (what your parents think, your principal, your community, your country). You simply don't have that extra dynamic that messes up with your daily life outside of school if you are bullied for wearing glasses.
If I were bullied in high school, I would have stood up for myself. However, seeing how ADULTS are treating this death, I would be fighting a LONG HARD LONELY battle. Not the same if I had some support.
These kids don't have support. They literally feel that they are scum because the MAJORITY of people (including adults) tell them that.
I guess my point is that no, it's not the same as being picked on for being skinny.
I went through the same struggles as you(I'm a bisexual woman). I was not bullied for my sexuality(I suspect it is because I'm bisexual and was able to hide it more) but it was still hard coming to terms with it. At some points I felt like something was wrong with me too.
I think coming to terms with something you feel you have "no control" of is probably more difficult than coming to terms with things that may be more in your control.
For instance I remember reading an essay written by a psychologist a few weeks ago about how "ugly" black women were. Now I'm a biracial woman(I'm 1/2 black) and while it didn't hurt me very much, I could see that for a lot of black women it brought back "feelings" of inferiority, ugliness, and so on. Just as the statistics about black women not getting married, being the least desired, and so on are equally hurtful.
I don't believe you can control your race, your sex, or your sexuality. But I still don't think it's a normal reaction to kill yourself. I just think there's more to it than that. Or could it be that if it TRULY accurate that homosexuals kill themselves in larger numbers, that maybe they are more "sensitive"?
I'm pretty sure that suicide is not a recent phenomenon, so this idea that kids are somehow weaker than in the past holds no logic or evidence. I don't actually think kids have changed... but their parents? Yeah, they've gotten worse.
Suicide isn't a recent phenomenon, neither is discrimination, oppression, or intolerance. Or bullying. And yet these are the "reasons" that people are saying that homosexuals are killing themselves. These are the reasons that heterosexuals are killing themselves or resorting to drastic measures(i.e moving to another school, plastic surgery, etc). This is NOT normal. Suicide was not as frequent in the past as it is now, nor was the number of kids who can't "cope" or deal, neither was the amount of teenagers on anti-depressants. Something is wrong with this picture. I don't know if it's the "parents" or the "kids", but I do know that YES these things(bullying, discrimination, etc) existed in the past and suicide was not the typical response. So my PERSONAL belief(you can feel free to disagree) is that children(no matter the sexuality) have become more sensitive to these things, or don't possess the same abilities to cope as their older counterparts.
And because bullying occurs for all kinds of 'reasons', you think bullying is "Okay"? Because I think that was the point, that bullying is NOT 'okay', no matter why it happens. Yes, some kids can deal with being bullied; the point is that not all of them can. And, yes, I would say that severe depression can cause one to contemplate suicide. So we need to look at the causes of that depression. And one of those causes is bullying and living in a society where too many people agree with the bullies.
Meh where did I say that bullying was okay? Acknowledging that bullying happens, and that it effects ALL groups, is not saying that it is okay. My point was that it is NOT a normal response to kill yourself because you were bullied. To say I agree with bullying, because I acknowledge it exists is beyond stupid.
AS I said in that post, I have been mistreated, felt not normal, felt inferior: A) I'm a woman. B) I'm a biracial woman that looks like a light skinned black woman. C) I AM bisexual.
That did not lead me to kill myself. Everyone has different levels of strength and deals with adversity differently. I can understand that. But the fact of the matter is that suicide is a DRASTIC measure and that those who typically kill themselves are those with UNDERLINING issues--in other words they are typically very depressed. This goes beyond sexuality in my opinion, and speaks more about the amount of mentally disturbed teenagers that feel that this is the only way out.
I made it through 6 pages of posts before I had to type something so if this has been said in pages 7-11 I apologize.
Kids are cruel. Bottom line. Kids are effing cruel. I was teased and bullied all through elementary/middle/high school. I made it through ok...but mainly because I wasn't teased or bullied to the extent that the kid in the OP's story was/is. Being teased for being fat/ugly/nerdy/poor/etc. IMHO is cake compared to what a gay/lesbian teen has to endure through highschool. I was teased...sure. But I never heard another kid say that they were going to kill me because I was the way I was. Lets just keep this in mind when you go to type that "well were were all teased in school so whats the big deal". Teasing is one thing, being threatened and fearful for your life is another.
I've been told something similar(as I said earlier I'm biracial and my skin color has not always been a happy sight to see for some people). I've been the subject of racism--just as several family members. My grandparents were alive when jim crow laws existed and they were denied a ton of rights and told that because they have black skin they are inferior, not normal, and beneath those with white skin. Their grandparents were slaves. They dealt with, without killing themselves.
I want to point out that I have struggled with sexuality myself. I don't think it's walk in the park either. I don't think anyone believes that. But in the past there were groups that were even MORE oppressed than homosexuals, and they did not kill themselves because of it. My point is that the teenagers killing themselves ALSO have underlining problems, because it is not a normal reaction to intolerance, discrimination. If it was, you'd see more groups that were oppressed resorting to suicide.
I agree that society's attitude toward sexuality has led many homosexual teens to become very depressed, confused, and abnormal. But society cannot be blamed when these individuals chose to take their lives because they weren't able to "deal" with it.
Not to mention the fact that a part of life is understanding that not everyone will like you, agree with you, or accept you for who you are(even the things you have no control over). Society cannot be forced to accept homosexuality if they don't "like" it. That is life. Not everyone will like us. This does not mean that we end our lives because of it. If that is the case, I would have done so along time ago, because I've been discriminated as a woman, and as a person of color, and even as bisexual person. The fact is we cannot make people accept homosexuality if they dislike it. Society cannot make homosexuals feel better about "who" they are. A part of developing your own identity is self-acceptance, taking pride in who you are, and developing thick skin about yourself. That is MY opinion. I had to do this as a woman of color, as a bisexual, and as a woman. If I allowed society to validate my normalcy I would be a pathetic heap of a person. At some point, homosexuals, do NEED to develop strength and pride. Because the fact is not everyone believes homosexuality is normal, natural or acceptable. We cannot make them feel that way, even with gay suicides, or stories like this one.
Now I do think it would help immensely if homosexuals were allowed to marry, and weren't treated so badly. And it's unfortunate that this is happening, but I see this changing with each decade, and suspect that within the next decade homosexuals will be allowed to marry.
I believe that you cannot let society define who you are... There will always be people who do not like you and mistreat you. You don't kill yourself because of it. You get stronger.
If I've offended anyone, I apologize, but these are my opinions.
Last edited by sunkisses87; 07-11-2011 at 02:52 PM..
I don't think that most gay youth who commit, or try to commit, or contemplate suicide do so because they are bullied. Gay youth hear the message that they are wrong, immoral, evil, deserving of scorn, need to change who they are, etc every singe day of their childhood from every direction be it from their parents, church, school, friendgroup, etc (thankfully this is changing - but put yourself in the shoes of a gay 13 year-old in 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, or 2000).
That puts gay youth in a horrible position. Not only do they end up internalizing an immense amount of shame and self-hatred, it's something they can't talk about with anybody. The fear of being found out for the evil, immoral, disgusting thing they've been convinced they are and losing the love of their family and friends is overwhelming. It's a tortuous situation to put anyone in - let alone a teenager: deny your humanity and pretend you're not the evil creature you've been convinced you are, or be honest and be rejected and lose the love of your friends and family (regardless of whether that's the reality or not - it's what gay kids believe will happen - it's the message they get from society). It's abusive: it's tormenting. It's a catch-22, and it leads many gay youth down the road of self-destruction.
I don't think that most gay youth who commit, or try to commit, or contemplate suicide do so because they are bullied. Gay youth hear the message that they are wrong, immoral, evil, deserving of scorn, need to change who they are, etc every singe day of their childhood from every direction be it from their parents, church, school, friendgroup, etc (thankfully this is changing - but put yourself in the shoes of a gay 13 year-old in 1950, 1960, 1970, 1980, 1990, or 2000).
That puts gay youth in a horrible position. Not only do they end up internalizing an immense amount of shame and self-hatred, it's something they can't talk about with anybody. The fear of being found out for the evil, immoral, disgusting thing they've been convinced they are and losing the love of their family and friends is overwhelming. It's a tortuous situation to put anyone in - let alone a teenager: deny your humanity and pretend you're not the evil creature you've been convinced you are, or be honest and be rejected and lose the love of your friends and family (regardless of whether that's the reality or not - it's what gay kids believe will happen - it's the message they get from society). It's abusive: it's tormenting. It's a catch-22, and it leads many gay youth down the road of self-destruction.
Poor wittle babies. I guess mom never taught them "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me". This victim mentality is downright offensive anymore. Some people just need to grow up and stand up for themselves, if they can't, the weak will always be abused.
Poor wittle babies. I guess mom never taught them "sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me". This victim mentality is downright offensive anymore. Some people just need to grow up and stand up for themselves, if they can't, the weak will always be abused.
What is it they call people who can't empathize? Sociopaths? Is that it?
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It is extremely difficult for black males to come out themselves.
where did I say that bullying was okay? Acknowledging that bullying happens, and that it effects ALL groups, is not saying that it is okay. My point was that it is NOT a normal response to kill yourself because you were bullied. To say I agree with bullying, because I acknowledge it exists is beyond stupid.