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You have it backwards, the DoI was an exercise in diplomacy (more sarcasm). It stated to the Brits that the colonies are no longer controlled by Britain. It was a declared statement (unanimous by all 13 colonies) explaining why they were dissolving their political ties to Britain. The war had already been going on for more than 2 years when the Continental Congress appointed a committee to explore Independence.
But that's neither here nor their and is far from the topic at hand. It seems more like an argument just for the sake of arguing.
I tend to agree, argument just for the sake of arguing. Your original remark that the Constitution isn't a Founding document, that there is only one Founding document, the Declaration of Independence, didn't sit well with me. And I have nothing backwards, I certainly have defended my remarks. Which is more than I can say for you.
But that's neither here nor there. And is far from the topic at hand. By the way, "unanimous by all 13 colonies" means what to you? That each of the the 13 colonies had people representing them? Because you do realize that each of those 13 colonies also had loyalist factions. And you realize that the revolutionaries weren't a MAJORITY of the colonists during the American Revolution. Loyalists and separatists each represented a MINORITY of colonists. Those who were NEUTRAL were the most numerous.
I tend to agree, argument just for the sake of arguing. Your original remark that the Constitution isn't a Founding document, that there is only one Founding document, the Declaration of Independence, didn't sit well with me. And I have nothing backwards, I certainly have defended my remarks. Which is more than I can say for you.
My original remark was the USC was not THE founding document as SickofNYC claimed it was THE founding document of the US, I merely stated it is a Primary document and that the DoI was THE founding document. Maybe you shouldn't jump into a conversation without first reading the comments leading up to it. imjusayin
What you have shown is that you failed to comprehend the discussion and jumped into something without reading prior comments or fully understanding what is being said.
My backwards comment was sarcastic...I was giving you different ways of saying the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge
But that's neither here nor there. And is far from the topic at hand. By the way, "unanimous by all 13 colonies" means what to you? That each of the the 13 colonies had people representing them? Because you do realize that each of those 13 colonies also had loyalist factions. And you realize that the revolutionaries weren't a MAJORITY of the colonists during the American Revolution. Loyalists and separatists each represented a MINORITY of colonists. Those who were NEUTRAL were the most numerous.
There was a Continental Congress joining all 13 colonies at the time, it was the Continental Congress that put forth the idea of a Declaration, thus the Declaration of Independence came unanimously from the 13 colonies representatives. Whether those 13 colonies still had loyalists factions or not, whether they were neutral or not, makes no difference. If you want to play the history game create a new topic and I'll play right along, but you're pissing on the wrong tree.
Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 04-04-2013 at 02:09 PM..
I don't know who's teaching you history, but the Declaration of Independence is a diplomatic exercise explaining to the rest of the world the reasons the rebelling colonists had to seek independence from England and its monarch.
The Constitution of the United States is the foundation for all law in the United States.
The colonists did not rebel from England for religious reasons. They rebelled because they had come to believe, in large part due to the humanist philosophies coming from Europe, that government is a contract between the leaders and the members of society. The leaders had an obligation to know and to meet the needs of the people they were ruling. And in the case of the colonies, the government was an ocean away, and neither knew nor cared about the needs of the colonists. Therefore that government was failing its contractual obligations, and the people who were being failed had the right to reject that government and form their own government that would work to meet their needs.
You are correct...
Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)
However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.
Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.
Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)
However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.
Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.
Do you believe that without the DoI that this nation would have formed? or would we still be under British rule?
Do you really comprehend what your link is stating? It is correct in saying that the DoI does not represent any law of the US. (The DoI does represent the separation of the colonies from British rule making them independent states) Then we would have the Articles of Confederation (1781 - which was initiated prior to the USC) which was the first set of laws forming a perpetual union and governance/law of the states. It wasn't until 1791 that the USC was ratified, which it then became what the Articles of Confederation already was, the law of the land.
I'll repeat this for you....the DoI was the founding document separating us from Britain. The USC (which is the second attempt after the Articles of Confederation) is a Primary document setting forth our laws of governance as a union, each state still holds their own laws of governance as well, i.e. state constitutions (every state has one - some older than the USC). Here's some of the Massachusetts Constitution (1780) which is still in effect today
Quote:
We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other; and of forming a new constitution of civil government, for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain and establish the following Declaration of Rights, and Frame of Government, as the Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.
I particularly like this part of the Mass Constitution
Quote:
Article II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments, provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.
We were not founded on religion, unless one deems the Mayflower and its compact as the founding of this nation. However, the US was founded by a religious people who placed their morals and customs into the creation of our laws. Does this mean that because the USC doesn't mention GOD anywhere in it that this nation wasn't founded by a religious people? NO! They were intelligent enough in their beliefs to allow this nation to be a society accepting of all religions and not to be like England having one religion - The Church of England. Its also why the USC was modeled after the Mass Constitution.
Its really not all that hard to understand unless you are so biased that all you know is the ignorance you were taught from being a lemming.
Last edited by Liquid Reigns; 04-04-2013 at 05:22 PM..
You are correct... Many Christian's who think of America as founded upon Christianity usually present the Declaration of Independence as "proof" of a Christian America. The reason appears obvious: the Declaration mentions God. (You may notice that some Christians avoid the Constitution, with its absence of God.)
However, the Declaration of Independence does not represent any law of the United States. It came before the establishment of our lawful government (the Constitution). The Declaration aimed at announcing the separation of America from Great Britain and it listed the various grievances with them. The Declaration includes the words, "The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America." The grievances against Great Britain no longer hold today, and we have more than thirteen states.
Although the Declaration may have influential power, it may inspire the lofty thoughts of poets and believers, and judges may mention it in their summations, it holds no legal power today. It represents a historical document about rebellious intentions against Great Britain at a time before the formation of our government.
Because he had no respect for established norms and pushed thinking beyond the box.
The hair-do is pretty cool too.
We were always told by people that my dad must be Einstein's clone. Dad looks exactly like Einstein, behaves ditzily as Einstein did, is brilliant (dad had a profession in one of the high sciences - for him the complex maths are as easy as putting a teabag in a cup), and has wild longish hair as Einstein did. I recently got him a very nicely framed funny poster of Einstein playing with a yoyo for his office, but other folks have given him little Einstein statues and stuff over the years.
I'll repeat this for you....the DoI was the founding document separating us from Britain. The USC (which is the second attempt after the Articles of Confederation) is a Primary document setting forth our laws of governance as a union, each state still holds their own laws of governance as well, i.e. state constitutions (every state has one - some older than the USC). Here's some of the Massachusetts Constitution (1780) which is still in effect todayI particularly like this part of the Mass ConstitutionWe were not founded on religion, unless one deems the Mayflower and its compact as the founding of this nation. However, the US was founded by a religious people who placed their morals and customs into the creation of our laws. Does this mean that because the USC doesn't mention GOD anywhere in it that this nation wasn't founded by a religious people? NO! They were intelligent enough in their beliefs to allow this nation to be a society accepting of all religions and not to be like England having one religion - The Church of England. Its also why the USC was modeled after the Mass Constitution.
Its really not all that hard to understand unless you are so biased that all you know is the ignorance you were taught from being a lemming.
So your problem here is? Our laws reject religion as the law of the land. Why do you keep scratching at this rash, if it's leading you nowhere? The people that landed here had some sort of religion? Yeah, AND? FYI - the people who were here before the people you PREFER, you know, the ones that landed here and usurped this land from its real owners? Those real owners of this land are the First Nations people, and THEY had a religion too. And?
We already all know that your hopes and wishes are to turn this country into a theocracy, and we also know that you understand that this country was not intended to be a theocracy, and we also understand that you know the Constitution rejects the concept of theocracy in its entirety, And STILL you keep scratching at this crap like a dog with mange. There is no foundation for setting up a theocracy here, and it's really aggravating having to read useless, baseless arguments repeated over and over.
And I sure wish you would quit using acronyms like DoI, it drives me crazy.
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