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I prefer an "ethnic salad" where all the flavors add to the dish, but none overpowers it.
I still want to have Chinese areas or Greek or Italian areas that keep the foods and the traditions, etc., but all immigrants need to speak english and be here legally. Can you tell I'm hungry? I'm thinking of everything in terms of food.
I prefer an "ethnic salad" where all the flavors add to the dish, but none overpowers it.
I'm surprised it took this long for someone to mention the salad metaphor. It's much more apropos of reality in multicultural nations. We don't melt together, we blend like a salad, retaining our original flavor while interacting with the flavors of the other ingredients.
I'm surprised it took this long for someone to mention the salad metaphor. It's much more apropos of reality in multicultural nations. We don't melt together, we blend like a salad, retaining our original flavor while interacting with the flavors of the other ingredients.
But that is the reality many don't want to acknowledge. It is much easier to take a stand against immigrants, for example, when the discussion is centered around an all or nothing proposition. Throw out the data showing language and cultural assimilation occurs overwhelmingly by the 2nd generation of immigrants. This is America! Speak English, gosh dang it!
But that is the reality many don't want to acknowledge. It is much easier to take a stand against immigrants, for example, when the discussion is centered around an all or nothing proposition. Throw out the data showing language and cultural assimilation occurs overwhelmingly by the 2nd generation of immigrants. This is America! Speak English, gosh dang it!
Hope you're right, Bily4, but I'm not convinced---what you say certainly did occur for most of our nation's history, and under difficult conditions, is still occurring today---but the big factor you're forgetting here is that the rather dog-eat-dog atmosphere of our earlier society PUSHED people into assimilating--even kids turned against parents in an effort to rid themselves of "old world" baggage.
Now we are in an era in which asimilation is discounted in importance, or even actively discouraged. Anyone wanting to assimilate today has a much lonelier job. Meanwhile, our ever-more-rapidly changing scene makes assimilation all the more important than it was in the past. It's as if we have two powerful trends collaborating against us, each trend exacerbating the other.
You and I both know immigrants want to assimilate---but apparently they get little encouragement from many of us.
...language and cultural assimilation occurs overwhelmingly by the 2nd generation of immigrants. This is America! Speak English, gosh dang it!
I agree with the response from macmeal because historical data do not address the current situation adequately. Times have changed. There is accumulating evidence that we're heading towards a bilingual nation, similar to Canada but without being divided by political boundaries. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just pointing out that Spanish is becoming a major second language in the USA and from all the evidence I can see this trend is accelerating.
After a critical mass of US citizens speaks fluent Spanish, especially in the SW, there becomes less incentive for 2nd or 3rd generation Spanish-speaking immigrants to become fluent in English. Is that good or bad? I don't know. Canada is a nice country and they've got a vastly more language-segregated population than we do, so I'm not sure it's something we should get upset about. At the same time, I don't think we should deny that it's happening. I feel more motivated to learn Spanish than ever before, because so many of my friends and neighbors are primarily Spanish-speakers. And I enjoy chatting with them in their language. It gives me freedom, it expands my mind. It's healthy for us to know more than one language.
If I could go back to my childhood I'd do the European thing and learn at least 3 or 4 languages fluently. It's empowering and liberating!
I agree with the response from macmeal because historical data do not address the current situation adequately. Times have changed. There is accumulating evidence that we're heading towards a bilingual nation, similar to Canada but without being divided by political boundaries. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just pointing out that Spanish is becoming a major second language in the USA and from all the evidence I can see this trend is accelerating...
I still disagree.
Immigrants will continue to learn English... because if they want to go to school, become a doctor, banker, lawyer, or other professional...and advance in life and do better than their parents it will be required of them. (I'll bet illegal immigrants would learn more English too, but we can't allow them into school to learn and assimilate now can we? )
Sure we will start becoming more like Europe with multiple languages being spoken, but I think that is a good thing and when our kids are forced to learn multiple languages like much of the world they will be the better for it.
Despite claims to the contrary, census data show that most Latino immigrants learn and speak English quite well. Only about 2.5 percent of American residents speak Spanish but not English. The majority of residents of Spanish-speaking households speak English "very well."
Only 7 percent of the children of Latino immigrants speak Spanish as a primary language, and virtually none of their children do. Just as they did a century ago, immigrants largely come knowing little English. But they learn, and their children use it as a primary language. The United States is not becoming a bilingual nation.
A key indicator is the rise of the English-language Latino publication market. National magazines such as Hispanic Business (circulation 265,000) and Latina (circulation 2 million) are published in English. So are regional publications in cities including New York, Houston and Los Angeles. The reason is simple: English is becoming the language of Hispanic American commerce and culture. Just as few Jewish-interest magazines are published in Yiddish, in a generation most Latino-interest publications will probably be in English.
The family has long been the core social unit in America, and immigrants share that value. Census data show that 62 percent of immigrants over age 15 are married, compared to 52 percent of natives. Only 6 percent of Latino adults are divorced, compared with 10 percent of whites and 12 percent of African Americans. Latino immigrants are more likely to live in multigenerational households rather than just visiting grandparents a couple of times a year.
Most Latino immigrants want to become U.S. citizens. This process takes years, so recent immigrants are not a good barometer. But according to the 2000 Census, the majority of Latinos who entered the United States before 1980 have become citizens. And second-generation immigrants are more likely to marry natives than immigrants, further assimilating their children. The majority of immigrants also own their own homes, a key part of the American dream.
Mercatus Center at George Mason University - Blending In, Moving Up (http://www.mercatus.org/Publications/pubID.2489,cfilter.0/pub_detail.asp - broken link)
I agree with the response from macmeal because historical data do not address the current situation adequately. Times have changed. There is accumulating evidence that we're heading towards a bilingual nation, similar to Canada but without being divided by political boundaries. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just pointing out that Spanish is becoming a major second language in the USA and from all the evidence I can see this trend is accelerating.
After a critical mass of US citizens speaks fluent Spanish, especially in the SW, there becomes less incentive for 2nd or 3rd generation Spanish-speaking immigrants to become fluent in English. Is that good or bad? I don't know. Canada is a nice country and they've got a vastly more language-segregated population than we do, so I'm not sure it's something we should get upset about. At the same time, I don't think we should deny that it's happening. I feel more motivated to learn Spanish than ever before, because so many of my friends and neighbors are primarily Spanish-speakers. And I enjoy chatting with them in their language. It gives me freedom, it expands my mind. It's healthy for us to know more than one language.
If I could go back to my childhood I'd do the European thing and learn at least 3 or 4 languages fluently. It's empowering and liberating!
Once more. interesting thoughts. Spanish certainly is useful, and I am able to get by (with an occasional pause) fairly well. My quibble (and I'm very big on quibbles) is that, once again, the comparison isn't quite fair with Canada.
I was up there just 2 weeks ago, and the bilingualism is, of course, part of the charm of the place. For a visitor, it's fun. But it does get a little silly, and I wonder if there's really an anglophone so dense he couldn't learn to stop at an red, octagonal "Arret" sign---or a francophone who couldn't eventually figure out that his "lacs" and "monts" are also "lakes" and "mountains". But of course, everything MUST be in both languages, and it speaks more of human stubbornness, I think, than anything else. I love to visit the place, but would hate to pay the printing costs there.
It must be remembered that Canada "went bilingual" 200 (or so) years ago, and they STILL have occasional "bickering", in a land generally noted as having a much politer population than our own. Remember the nasty dust-up some years back between the francophone air-traffic controllers and the anglophone pilots? Sound silly, but could have been very troublesome. They even had a separatist movement recently, mostly on the basis of language and culture. And this, mind you, in a very well-behaved country. I wonder, knowing what they now do, if Canada would go bilingual today?
Here, meanwhile, we have a NOT-so-well behaved population, and are considering "going bilingual" today---in an era of almost unprecedented personal rights and freedom. And what about my old buddies at the ACLU--if we "Go Spanish", why not "go" Tagalog? or Polish? or Haitian Creole? or Pashtu? or Arabic, Mandarin, or ANY language? Why should Spanish get any preference? There is no forseeable end to that trend, as I see it, that would not set off an unceasing flurry of suits and countersuits until we were completely bogged down. NO ONE is going to take a "back seat", given half a chance.
Thankfully, all this is not up to me...but I'd sure like to hear how we plan to address some of these things---any ideas out there?
My quibble (and I'm very big on quibbles) is that, once again, the comparison isn't quite fair with Canada.
I wouldn't dream of squelching your quibble. Fair dinkum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
Why should Spanish get any preference?
Why did English get any preference? It wasn't the native language until recent centuries. Whoever is here (in greater numbers) wins. Comparing Spanish to Pashtun is a bit absurd. Unless you know of 30 million immigrants from Pashtun-speaking countries who now live in the USA.
By the way, I just came inside from having a discussion, in Spanish, with the guys who are taking down a dead tree in front of my apartment. Knowing Spanish was helpful for two reasons:
1. establishing a friendly connection con los trabajaderos (with the workers)
2. figuring out how to protect all my potted plants that are in the line of fire
We can discuss making Swahili a 2nd language when I have to speak that language in order to effectively communicate with a large minority of people in my community. Until then, viva la Raza!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
Immigrants will continue to learn English... because if they want to go to school, become a doctor, banker, lawyer, or other professional...and advance in life and do better than their parents it will be required of them.
Uhhh, yeah. Where do you live? I'm not disputing your statement above, it just seems detached from the reality of life in the SW USA. See my response to macmeal above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
Most Latino immigrants want to become U.S. citizens. This process takes years, so recent immigrants are not a good barometer. But according to the 2000 Census, the majority of Latinos who entered the United States before 1980 have become citizens. And second-generation immigrants are more likely to marry natives than immigrants, further assimilating their children.
You're projecting linear trends from non-linear processes. I think we're both correct. I think Spanish will become more prevalent in the SW and that immigrants will continue to learn English, but these processes will become more entangled with greater emphasis on SW USA citizens learning Spanish in order to communicate with the dominant culture here, which is becoming Hispanic (mostly Mexican and Central American with a few Portuguese-speaking Brazilians tossed in for added flavor.)
If you doubt the dominance of Spanish as the primary language in parts of the SW then you should travel around SW Texas, east LA, the Coachella Valley, and a number of other places I could point you to. They're not all planning to become doctors and lawyers, but even those who are will have little incentive to learn English if their primary target clientèle consists of Spanish-speaking immigrants. I'm not saying this is good or bad. The more Spanish I learn, the more I enjoy the mix of the cultures. Perhaps cultural conflict is, in large part, a matter of misunderstanding and frustration rather than a conflict rooted in deep incommensurable values. I have no quarrel with la Raza, pero no me gusta la musica Tejano y Norteno, no puedo escuchar a este ruido!!!!
A mi tampoco me gusta el ruido de la musica nortena, pero si me gusta la musica mariachi! Pero tampoco me gusta el rap!
Yes I have lived all around the South West and continue to live there. I still defy you to show me where Hispanic children born in the USA go to strictly Spanish schools and are not taught English. I have yet to meet anybody born in this country that does not learn English. I think the presumption that at some point in ther future - kids here will "not bother" to learn English because they prefer to spend their entire lives in their barrio is not a valid one. They teach English in most of the better schools, private and public, in Mexico and in many parts of the world. Why? Because English is the international language and is required if you want to succeed. If they decide to keep their Spanish too, all the better.
As has been discussed in other threads, there has never been an "official" language in this country, even when the percentage of people speaking other languages as their primary language (German for example) was greater than it is today. The founders of our government saw trying to force language as a government function as being an infringement on individual liberties.
Sure our country is "browning" and getting more of a Hispanic flavor. But in that pesky Constitution it does state "All men are created equal"...not with an asterisk "but WASPs are really number one" anywhere, unless I missed the small print.
Yes I have lived all around the South West and continue to live there. I still defy you to show me where Hispanic children born in the USA go to strictly Spanish schools and are not taught English. I have yet to meet anybody born in this country that does not learn English. I think the presumption that at some point in ther future - kids here will "not bother" to learn English because they prefer to spend their entire lives in their barrio is not a valid one.
Good post, but a correction is needed --- I don't equate "not bothering to learn English" with "living in the barrio." There are wealthy neighborhoods in parts of So Cal and Texas where Spanish is the dominant language.
I do agree with you that children born in the USA almost always learn English in school, but that doesn't mean it becomes their dominant language in the home. Just as children born in Ottawa probably all learn French, but that doesn't mean they adopt it. Bad example, admittedly, because Ottawa is an English-speaking city, but it's across the river from Quebec so it's fairly bilingual.
Your posts have been very interesting on this topic and I mostly agree with you. My only point of disagreement is with respect to the future of language in the USA. I do think Spanish is on the ascendant and will become a de facto second language of American citizens in a few decades. And I don't have a problem with that, as long as we don't have stupid laws requiring all signs to be posted in 2 languages.
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